Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Mon May 20, 2013 8:56 pm

The zob wrote:
human909 wrote:How many times does it need to be said? Nobody here is arguing against the protective benefits of a helmet.


Aye? :shock: Almost 12 months ago you wrore this:

Mandatory helmets do not have a health and safety benefit


Is "Health and safety" different to "Protective benefits"? :lol: :lol:

You missed a bit.

Human did not say helmets were ineffectual, he said that the laws mandating helmet use were ineffectual. Different thing. I suspect you know that.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby KenGS » Mon May 20, 2013 9:03 pm

London Boy wrote:
The zob wrote:
human909 wrote:How many times does it need to be said? Nobody here is arguing against the protective benefits of a helmet.


Aye? :shock: Almost 12 months ago you wrore this:

Mandatory helmets do not have a health and safety benefit


Is "Health and safety" different to "Protective benefits"? :lol: :lol:

You missed a bit.

Human did not say helmets were ineffectual, he said that the laws mandating helmet use were ineffectual. Different thing. I suspect you know that.

Plus, health benefit includes the benefit of an active lifestyle. So yes, Health and Safety benefit is different to Protective Benefits :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ken Ho » Mon May 20, 2013 9:38 pm

simonn wrote:
Ken Ho wrote:Don't buy it. Little country towns which are like Euro villages are some of the most cycle poor places you will find.


Hmmmm.... not really a fair comparison.

The little euro villages of which you speak likely receive much EU subsidies so the farmers can continue their rustic lifestyle of riding their mule to the field and spending the whole day drinking <local strong beverage> behind a haystack and/or are commuter villages where people drive or are served by good PT.... and would be close enough to a city (or large town) to be considered part of the metropolitan area if they were located in Australia. Doesn't sound like a small Australian country town to me.



Seriously ?
What are you smoking ?
I was referring to size. In a typical small country town, usually about 2km of main street, with a few side streets, flat as a tack, there is no reason not to use a bike for odd jobs, paper shop, small grocery runs etc. Despite this, pretty much everyone drives a Toorak Tractor and the only people on bikes are poor or DUIs. There are always a few Lycra bandits, but they typically go out early and don't use their bikes for utility runs either.
Riding a bike in most of these places puts you in a certain demographics, and I've been pulled over and hassled by the cops enough to know this for sure. Just for riding my shop bike with a basket.
Maybe I should ride a donkey instead.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon May 20, 2013 10:02 pm

human909 wrote:
simonn wrote:Well, in that case, as far as I am concerned having to wear a helmet is also a poor reason for not riding too. :P

I'm well aware of that. But that is your opinion and the barrier is a government regulation!

simonn wrote:Flippantcy aside, if I did not have somewhere secure-ish to leave my bike I would be hesitant to ride to work. I was umming and arrring about riding to jury duty for this reason, but luckily got out of it. Theft is a reasonable reason though. It is far easier to steal a bicycle than a car (or bus/train/ferry).

Nonetheless, Australia has much lower bike theft rates than Europe. Your paranoia seems unwarranted. Most utilitarian cyclists don't have such problems. :mrgreen:

You seem unwilling to recognise the different NEEDS of different cyclists. Or in your eyes should cycling only exist as a sport and not as a day to day transport?


Australia also has lower cycling rates that Europe. Perhaps there is a correlation.

I am not. I suspect I use a bicycle for transport more than most, maybe even you.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby DavidS » Mon May 20, 2013 11:02 pm

Howzat wrote:What helmets do, in fact, is allow people to lower - not raise - their perception of the risk of cycling.


Wearing a helmet may lower the perception of risk for someone riding a bike. But, legislating helmet wearing gives off one very big message: warning, warning, cycling is so damned dangerous you must wear a helmet or you will be fined. I've heard this attitude too often and I didn't hear it before MHLs.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby citywomble » Mon May 20, 2013 11:57 pm

Most of you seem to epitomise the art of 'confirmation bias and seem oblivious to the views and opinions of others. People are different, thank god, and you need to accept other people's opinions and not dismiss them. Cyclists in your world might be the norm, in the real world (that of the majority) a Lycra clad helmet wearing cyclist is abnormal'. I'm with human 909 and Ken Ho on this - they do get it.

I'm in a typical Perth suburb and live withing walking distance of my shops. I can cycle to three local centres within 5 minutes but, guess what, I drive to them. Why, because my BSO is accessible but I can never easily find my helmet and, when I am at the shops where do I put it. On the occasion I have ridden the lack of bike parking is not an issue, traipsing around like a wannabe racer with a helmet is.

I am a POBSO and proud of it. I dislike wearing a helmet but do when I ride, if I don't have a helmet then I do not ride.
The problem here is that the vast numbers of POBSOs don't like to wear helmets and those that ride without are the law breakers and do not represent the silent majority. The people we deter, and subsequently miss, are the law abiding riders who we really need. Darwin has got it, ride the paths and you don't need to wear one - that's official! The result, 6% bicycle modeshare and rising.

Yes I can ride on the road but have no problem with footpaths and shared paths when I am not happy with the road. The future is local shared roads and lower speed limits - but here's the rub, we need to get them populated with POBSOs first. To get the facilities we have to be seen to use them. I can walk 800m in 10-12 minutes at 4-5 kph, but I can ride 3.2 km in the same time at 16-20 kph. That's my speed, I don't need or like to cycle much faster and four times walking speed is great and also acceptable to pedestrians. I can still relate to where I am, enjoy the view and I haven't fallen off the bike in years.

Give us all a break, keep wearing your helmets and all the rest but please, let us Pedestrians ride our Bike Shaped Objects without the road warriors helmet.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Tue May 21, 2013 1:09 am

+ 1 million!

Yet most people here are so in love with their road bikes their 23mm tyres, their Lycra, their carbon that they don't see or don't care and have no respect for other more sedate forms of cycling. They don't care that MHLs have helped destroy other forms of cycling.

Now don't get me wrong, like other people choose to. I love getting into the Lycra and onto my roadie. But i also love my mountain biking, touring and recreational rides. But most of all I like simply getting from A to B on a bike in regular attire. (Oh except for that damn helmet!)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ken Ho » Tue May 21, 2013 8:08 am

Citywomble, my shop helmet is a cheap and nasty POS, which I just leave on teh bike. No-one has nicked it yet. No-one would willingly wear such a turd on their head.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jcjordan » Tue May 21, 2013 8:33 am

human909 wrote:
jcjordan wrote:Europe has seen this to a lesser extent than we have in Australia; which is another reason the whole argument of using places like Amsterdam as an example of how it could be as pointless

So remind me again how this relates to the Dutch and the rest of Europe not needing MHLs?


Because time and time again Amsterdam is pu up as this cycling eutopia. No helmets, everyone ride, so on and so forth
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jcjordan » Tue May 21, 2013 8:37 am

human909 wrote:This is Australia's attitudes to helmets and bikes:

Image

And you don't think mandatory helmet laws have anything to do with this? :roll:

No - I have yet to see any evidence that shows the dislike for cyclist just because they wear a helmet.

Its a attitude that has built up in a country wear the car is seen as adult freedom
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Wed May 22, 2013 8:20 pm

human909 wrote:Yet most people here are so in love with their road bikes their 23mm tyres, their Lycra, their carbon that they don't see or don't care and have no respect for other more sedate forms of cycling. They don't care that MHLs have helped destroy other forms of cycling.

Please don't put us all in the same basket. I am a 23mm tyre loving, Lycra wearing rider of the carbon steed and I object most vociferously to the damage to cycling participation rates caused by mandatory helmet laws. I don't give a stuff what kind of BSO a person rides, or how fast, or where, but I always think 'good on them' for riding at all.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Bob_TAS » Wed May 22, 2013 8:40 pm

jcjordan wrote:This is Australia's attitudes to helmets and bikes


Were I that kid, I wouldn't be concerned about the helmet; it's the tacky white shoes with a suit that I'd be worried about! 8)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed May 22, 2013 10:38 pm

London Boy wrote:
human909 wrote:Yet most people here are so in love with their road bikes their 23mm tyres, their Lycra, their carbon that they don't see or don't care and have no respect for other more sedate forms of cycling. They don't care that MHLs have helped destroy other forms of cycling.

Please don't put us all in the same basket. I am a 23mm tyre loving, Lycra wearing rider of the carbon steed and I object most vociferously to the damage to cycling participation rates caused by mandatory helmet laws.


:D

Everyone's not in the same basket. As I have ALWAYS tried to emphasize it doesn't matter what basket you are in. I hope I've made that clear, if I haven't I apologise. :) When I am in my Lycra with my 23mm tyres I am largely indistinguishable from the like. I fit into most baskets from roadie to hipster to fred to PBSO.

London Boy wrote:I don't give a stuff what kind of BSO a person rides, or how fast, or where, but I always think 'good on them' for riding at all.


+a bazillion!
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Thu May 23, 2013 10:23 am

London Boy wrote:I don't give a stuff what kind of BSO a person rides, or how fast, or where, but I always think 'good on them' for riding at all.

To a point. That point is when it has the forks on backwards and /or has training wheels. Neither can be tolerated.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ross » Thu May 23, 2013 3:07 pm

citywomble wrote:I'm in a typical Perth suburb and live withing walking distance of my shops. I can cycle to three local centres within 5 minutes but, guess what, I drive to them. Why, because my BSO is accessible but I can never easily find my helmet and, when I am at the shops where do I put it. On the occasion I have ridden the lack of bike parking is not an issue, traipsing around like a wannabe racer with a helmet is.

I am a POBSO and proud of it. I dislike wearing a helmet but do when I ride, if I don't have a helmet then I do not ride.
The problem here is that the vast numbers of POBSOs don't like to wear helmets and those that ride without are the law breakers and do not represent the silent majority. The people we deter, and subsequently miss, are the law abiding riders who we really need. Darwin has got it, ride the paths and you don't need to wear one - that's official! The result, 6% bicycle modeshare and rising.



Why can you not find your helmet? Sensible thing would be to leave it with your bike. Same when you get to the shops on your bike with your helmet, just leave it on the bike. I doubt anyone is going to steal a second-hand helmet.

Do you have the same trouble when you want to walk outside? Can't find your shoes, or maybe your pants?

Sounds like you are just using your own lack of organisational skills as an excuse not to ride your bike.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Thu May 23, 2013 3:21 pm

human909 wrote:I fit into most baskets from roadie to hipster to fred to PBSO


Why do you seem to assume that a lot of others are not also like this?

You have posted several times insinuating that I am just a fred, which I am at times, but most of my riding is commuting and we regularly do shopping etc on bicycles.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Thu May 23, 2013 3:24 pm

Ross wrote:Do you have the same trouble when you want to walk outside? Can't find your shoes, or maybe your pants?


Why can't I walk around naked? Surely having to wear clothes puts others off walking? Maybe if we allowed people to perambulate without being constricted by clothing they would walk more and walking would become more normal? We would have more footpaths! All clothes do is indicate to people how dangerous walking must be!
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby high_tea » Thu May 23, 2013 4:45 pm

Australia's social attitudes to clothing are awful, no doubt about it. Social mores are the problem, though, not de jure laws.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby John Lewis » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:08 pm

Came across this. Don't know if it has been posted before. May be of interest.
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http://www.bicycling.com/senseless/?cm_ ... -senseless
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:38 am

John Lewis wrote:Came across this. Don't know if it has been posted before. May be of interest.
John

http://www.bicycling.com/senseless/?cm_ ... -senseless


Interesting..... What fundamentally matters in impact damage reducing measures is the impact absorbing distance. Helmets at best doubles this distance. This is great if you happen to have an impact that slightly exceeds the capabilities of our own skull. Beyond that you still aren't looking good.

Better not to impact in the first place. In the twenty plus years I've been riding I've never struck my head. I intend to keep it that way. :D
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:08 am

human909 wrote:
John Lewis wrote:Came across this. Don't know if it has been posted before. May be of interest.
John

http://www.bicycling.com/senseless/?cm_ ... -senseless


Interesting..... What fundamentally matters in impact damage reducing measures is the impact absorbing distance. Helmets at best doubles this distance. This is great if you happen to have an impact that slightly exceeds the capabilities of our own skull. Beyond that you still aren't looking good.

Better not to impact in the first place. In the twenty plus years I've been riding I've never struck my head. I intend to keep it that way. :D


Well not everyone can be so fortunate Human because I've had a number of falls during racing, training and general riding having car doors opened on me and all had visible damage to helmet and on one occasion broke one of the straps. :wink: The last one was only a couple of months ago, where I drove my shoulder and head together into the ground. :oops: Not all can be so lucky, hence the reason for helmets. :idea:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:51 am

Not hitting my head isn't about being lucky it is about not taking risks and and knowing how to fall. This notion that hitting ones head while cycling is simply a probabilistic notion is simply false.

(I did take a big tumble 3 weeks ago mountain biking at king lake, I broke my hand. No head impact, i tucked and rolled! :wink: )

foo on patrol wrote:Well not everyone can be so fortunate Human because I've had a number of falls during racing, training and general riding having car doors opened on me and all had visible damage to helmet and on one occasion broke one of the straps. :wink: The last one was only a couple of months ago, where I drove my shoulder and head together into the ground. :oops: Not all can be so lucky, hence the reason for helmets. :idea:

Foo


Racing is obviously higher risk. Training is too if you are riding fast on busy roads or riding with bunches. I have no reason to discourage you from wearing a helmet. However not everybody takes that much risk. Hence making helmets mandatory really isn't appropriate.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ross » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:58 am

human909 wrote:
John Lewis wrote:Came across this. Don't know if it has been posted before. May be of interest.
John

http://www.bicycling.com/senseless/?cm_ ... -senseless


Interesting..... What fundamentally matters in impact damage reducing measures is the impact absorbing distance. Helmets at best doubles this distance. This is great if you happen to have an impact that slightly exceeds the capabilities of our own skull. Beyond that you still aren't looking good.

Better not to impact in the first place. In the twenty plus years I've been riding I've never struck my head. I intend to keep it that way. :D


Interesting too that they say more people are cycling (USA) but more people are getting head injuries even though more people are wearing helmets. My totally unscientific theory is that at least part of the reason is people are doing stupider things like trying to emulate people like the Jackass crew and Danny MacAskill and therefore crashing and injuring themselves more.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:53 am

Ross wrote:Interesting too that they say more people are cycling (USA) but more people are getting head injuries even though more people are wearing helmets. My totally unscientific theory is that at least part of the reason is people are doing stupider things like trying to emulate people like the Jackass crew and Danny MacAskill and therefore crashing and injuring themselves more.


There is little doubt that the type of cycling that is common in Australia and the US is vastly different and vastly more risky than the cycling in Amsterdam. This easily makes as much difference to safety as the better infrastructure. But sadly we have a government and many of our cycling 'advocacy' groups actively supporting laws that discourage regular everyday cycling. :cry:


Helmets are great for their purpose. When I was going down hill at king lake mountain bike track I wouldn't have dared not wear a helmet. In fact I had the distinct feeling that my jaw was quite exposed, a full face helmet would have been preferable. Long pants, full face helmet, wrist, knee, shoulder, back and neck guards were what other people were wearing. I had my foam hat. :lol:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:06 pm

Tuck and roll is good at low speed but at speed and strapped in, it is some what harder to do but that is a good way of not hurting to much in a fall. :wink:

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