Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:53 am

Been in the UK recently? THey have way fewer camera's than here.... are way more generous in the over margins they allow, and paint the things bright yellow and put signs up.

They dont seem to stuff up as often as they do here either. Probably cos of the margins. "Sheesh ticket for 70... Ahhh well I was doing 90"

Of course when I say 'here' I mean VIctoria. A place where camera's are well on the way to outnumbering cops. And the margin allowed is 3 km And the camera,s are allowed to be placed on steep downhills.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:57 am

Percrime wrote:
Of course when I say 'here' I mean VIctoria. A place where camera's are well on the way to outnumbering cops. And the margin allowed is 3 km And the camera,s are allowed to be placed on steep downhills.


+1 One of the first things I noticed on return to this state was the saturation advertising, TV, radio, road side billboards, attempting to legitimise these revenue raising devices.

Stupidity\incompetence are fair bigger contributor to roadway carnage than speed. Seems a bit harder to generate revenue out of policing that though :x
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:41 pm

Percrime wrote:Been in the UK recently? THey have way fewer camera's than here.... are way more generous in the over margins they allow, and paint the things bright yellow and put signs up.

I do believe that this is down to differing road safety attitudes. In the UK, they don't want you speeding. Here, they want to catch you speeding. Subtle but very telling.

Seems that if it can't be detected and invoiced remotely, the VicPol aint much interested :(
I note that in the latest round of "Schlock and Bore" commercials put out by the TAC that unregistered vehicles are the latest monsters of the road, would it be cynical to suggest that plod recently obtaining a camera to detect them may have a lot to do with it?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:18 pm

Percrime wrote:Been in the UK recently? THey have way fewer camera's than here.... are way more generous in the over margins they allow, and paint the things bright yellow and put signs up.

About 6,000 cameras as at middle of last year.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:23 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I note that in the latest round of "Schlock and Bore" commercials put out by the TAC that unregistered vehicles are the latest monsters of the road, would it be cynical to suggest that plod recently obtaining a camera to detect them may have a lot to do with it?


Damn right they are monsters. Unregistered = uninsured = you are [potentially in big financial trouble] if you are seriously injured by one.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:26 pm

warthog1 wrote:Stupidity\incompetence are fair bigger contributor to roadway carnage than speed. Seems a bit harder to generate revenue out of policing that though :x


Speeding is stupid. Not understanding why is stupidity. Not realising you are speeding is incompetence. Just because there are other ways of demonstrating stupidity and incompetence on the road does not mean that speeding is ok.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:36 pm

Not arguing that point at all Simonn, just pointing out the amazing coincidence in that they are now in the top echelon of road hazards seemingly only minutes after plod get the hardware to make detection easy.

I'm quite sure that if Plod could photograph people scratching their nuts while driving that this'd instantly join the top three too. :roll:
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:56 pm

Scratching your nuts at 40kmh is embarrassing.

Scratching your nuts at 110kmh is stupid, incompetent and quite potentially life-threatening.



The SPEED does matter.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:34 pm

How any of that correlates to the 3 kmh error vic police allow is beyond me.
Speed cameras are not going to stop the idiot travelling at a grossly inappropriate speed. What they are going to do is lighten the wallet of someone who is concentrating on the road and not the speedometer.

I've lost count of the number of fatalities I've attended on the road over the years. Very few of them have involved excessive speed, well there have been a couple of police pursuits that have ended badly. Most have involved someone not indicating their intentions, overtaking when unsafe, not giving way at intersections, not concentrating on the job at hand.
Speed is what is targeted because it is easily detected by automated devices.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:35 am

warthog1 wrote:How any of that correlates to the 3 kmh error vic police allow is beyond me.
Speed cameras are not going to stop the idiot travelling at a grossly inappropriate speed. What they are going to do is lighten the wallet of someone who is concentrating on the road and not the speedometer.


Do you live in Victoria ? Did you live in Victoria pre and post the introduction of speed cameras ?

While I agree fully with the other causes of road collisions that you identify, in the 1980s the speeds drivers drove on our roads were much higher than the legal limit. On a 60kmh road everyone drove at 70; on a 100kmh road very few drove below 110, most at 115-120. Cycling was very dangerous, the cycling death rate was much higher than today. Since the use of speed cameras (late-80s and early 90s) the adherence to speed limits by Victorian drivers has improved greatly and general road speeds are lower. This is a very good thing IMHO.

Get used to the use of speed cameras. They are a very effective way to control driver speeds. They will continue to be used. The general speed of vehicles on our roads is a major factor contributing to the cause of road collisions, and certainly worsening the severity of the resulting carnage. Anything that can bring vehicle speeds down is a good thing.


BTW, any driver who cannot concentrate on the road AND monitor their vehicle speed at the same time should not have a licence to drive. Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:41 am

warthog1 wrote:How any of that correlates to the 3 kmh error vic police allow is beyond me.
Speed cameras are not going to stop the idiot travelling at a grossly inappropriate speed. What they are going to do is lighten the wallet of someone who is concentrating on the road and not the speedometer.

I've lost count of the number of fatalities I've attended on the road over the years. Very few of them have involved excessive speed, well there have been a couple of police pursuits that have ended badly. Most have involved someone not indicating their intentions, overtaking when unsafe, not giving way at intersections, not concentrating on the job at hand.
Speed is what is targeted because it is easily detected by automated devices.


Who really cares what the margin of error is? It is a maximum speed limit, not a minimum speed limit. Nothing to stop you increasing your own personal margin of error.

Excess speed makes the impact of any accidents, whatever the root cause, worse.

What is wrong with having better/cheaper enforcement for the things that are easier to enforce? "Idiot taxes" are fine by me anyway. All I have to do is follow the rules and pay less. Beauty.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:10 am

I don't particularly agree with pad and Simon. If you are riding on a main road or descent with lots of crossroads and various hazards, you will maintain caution on the bike. You won't idly wander around on the bike because the penalty for failure is big. Really big. Car drivers do not apply the same caution because they rely on the penalty for failure to be worn by other people. If you know hey have to give way to you, you just charge along. Speed has been addressed, now we need attentive drivers. Considerate drivers. We need a population of people that appreciate that cars must kill because of the size and velocity involved, and this risk applies to the people inside the car as well. This is where the fundamental issue with the thread topic comes into play. A helmet does not address the fact that the biggest risk to the rider is not the ground. It is the deadbeat driver who does not accept that their keys are like loading a gun, and the steering wheel is pointing the barrel at anyone nearby.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:57 pm

il padrone wrote:
Do you live in Victoria ? Did you live in Victoria pre and post the introduction of speed cameras ?

Yes, left for 15 years, now back for family reasons
il padrone wrote:While I agree fully with the other causes of road collisions that you identify, in the 1980s the speeds drivers drove on our roads were much higher than the legal limit. On a 60kmh road everyone drove at 70; on a 100kmh road very few drove below 110, most at 115-120. Cycling was very dangerous, the cycling death rate was much higher than today. Since the use of speed cameras (late-80s and early 90s) the adherence to speed limits by Victorian drivers has improved greatly and general road speeds are lower. This is a very good thing IMHO.

Speed cameras have bought the fatality rate down I'm sure, however vehicular design and safety and road infrastructure has vastly improved in that time, think the old calder and hume highways. Speed camera acolytes blame everything on speed and disregard the vast improvements in vehicle dynamics and safety, airbags, crumple zones, abs, stability control, traction control and the introduction of large sections of divided road that eliminates the need for dangerous overtaking are equal or greater influences on the reduction in road fatalities.
As far as your recollection of the speed at which cars travelled pre speed cameras, mine differs from yours, I don't recall the roads being a racetrack like the impression you attempt to create. The road toll has been stable now for a number of years yet the margin for error has got tighter 3km/h, cameras now placed on downhill sections and fines increased well beyond the CPI increase, cash grab anyone :wink:

Cycling fatalities may have been higher in that time before mandatory helmet use, but your line here differs from the rest of the thread I believe :twisted: :lol:
You are overseas now I believe or have been recently, do you find they have the religious zeal about speed limits that we endure in Vic? Have you found yourself knocked from the bike as a result? Or do you find that perhaps the driver attitudes are less aggressive and more sharing toward other road users.
I wish our government would spend a little time and effort on that rather than solely focusing on revenue :x



il padrone wrote:BTW, any driver who cannot concentrate on the road AND monitor their vehicle speed at the same time should not have a licence to drive. Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.


Please :roll: what a simplistic argument. The level of noise insulation, improved vehicle dynamics, increased engine power and reduced speed limits 40 and 50 zones, make it very easy for ones speed to increase, particularly on a downhill stretch. I prefer to have my eyes on the road than the speedo YMMV. Even the ambulances we drive which are basically just tarted up delivery vans, have this tendency. I use the cruise control even in a 50 zone at times to remove the level of attention required to stay at or below the speed limit. Becomes more difficult where there is increased traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:49 pm

warthog1 wrote:Speed cameras have bought the fatality rate down I'm sure, however vehicular design and safety and road infrastructure has vastly improved in that time, think the old calder and hume highways. Speed camera acolytes blame everything on speed and disregard the vast improvements in vehicle dynamics and safety, airbags, crumple zones, abs, stability control, traction control and the introduction of large sections of divided road that eliminates the need for dangerous overtaking are equal or greater influences on the reduction in road fatalities.

The big changes in speed on the roads that I noticed (as a driver and cyclist) occurred between the mid-80s and early-90s. This was all prior to the improved technologies and much of the newer road building that you mention. The major causative changes were speed cameras, red-light cameras and the new booze buses.


warthog1 wrote:As far as your recollection of the speed at which cars travelled pre speed cameras, mine differs from yours, I don't recall the roads being a racetrack like the impression you attempt to create. The road toll has been stable now for a number of years yet the margin for error has got tighter 3km/h, cameras now placed on downhill sections and fines increased well beyond the CPI increase, cash grab anyone :wink:

Cycling fatalities may have been higher in that time before mandatory helmet use, but your line here differs from the rest of the thread I believe :twisted: :lol:

Just goes to show that your experience may have differed from mine. The MHL "safety benefits" were more down to the road safety initiatives of the late 80s that I mentioned above, together with fewer cyclists on our roads (notably the teenagers).


warthog1 wrote:You are overseas now I believe or have been recently, do you find they have the religious zeal about speed limits that we endure in Vic? Have you found yourself knocked from the bike as a result? Or do you find that perhaps the driver attitudes are less aggressive and more sharing toward other road users.

Of course driver attitudes are the key. However there are plenty of speed camera signs in Italy. People do not necessarily follow the limits (which are much lower than in Aus) but they drive with an awareness and care for the other road user. And they slow down very readily when the limit changes and/or there is a need to do so. In short, they 'give a damn', unlike Australian drivers.


You cannot legislate or enforce this so easily.



warthog1 wrote:Please :roll: what a simplistic argument. The level of noise insulation, improved vehicle dynamics, increased engine power and reduced speed limits 40 and 50 zones, make it very easy for ones speed to increase, particularly on a downhill stretch. I prefer to have my eyes on the road than the speedo YMMV. Even the ambulances we drive which are basically just tarted up delivery vans, have this tendency. I use the cruise control even in a 50 zone at times to remove the level of attention required to stay at or below the speed limit. Becomes more difficult where there is increased traffic.


Well my car is a 8yo Falcon. It is nice and quiet inside but I can still manage to judge safe speeds without manic speedo monitoring. I can even manage to keep below the limit, or close enough not to get speed camera fines. The last one was more than 5 years ago. Just my experience. I do think this sort of line is a bit of a cop-out.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:09 pm

il padrone wrote:You cannot legislate or enforce this so easily.

You can, but I'm not sure people respect human life more than want freedom from a police state. Draconian automatic liability laws would solve it. You hit another vehicle, jail time. Mandate a couple cameras in each car to demonstrate who is at fault. It's really not that hard. But... people drive to be free, not to actually commute.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:18 pm

il padrone wrote:Of course driver attitudes are the key. However there are plenty of speed camera signs in Italy. People do not necessarily follow the limits (which are much lower than in Aus) but they drive with an awareness and care for the other road user. And they slow down very readily when the limit changes and/or there is a need to do so. In short, they 'give a damn', unlike Australian drivers.


Italy actually has a worse traffic-related death rate than Australia -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:35 pm

And the UK figures are better than ours...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:24 pm

il padrone wrote:
Well my car is a 8yo Falcon. It is nice and quiet inside but I can still manage to judge safe speeds without manic speedo monitoring. I can even manage to keep below the limit, or close enough not to get speed camera fines. The last one was more than 5 years ago. Just my experience. I do think this sort of line is a bit of a cop-out.


Longer than that for me, my wife OTOH, 5 in the last 5 years :x To be fair to her though 3 were in the same location over a period of 3 years( though you'd think she'd learn after the first couple). A stretch of lightly travelled road where the speed limit changes fro 80 -60 with no change in road conditions, wide verges, not built up etc. Of course that is wher the local plod places the revenue camera :roll: . Not at an accident black spot, but where the speed limit is set too low for the road conditions. Maximise revenue at a point in the road where there is a good chance attention to speed may wander if you drive to the conditions. Tell me again why I should swallow the government road safety line :evil:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:37 pm

Getting back to helmets......

This evening is my last evening in Darwin after a week in the top end. I've see plenty of cyclists around the city. Alot less helmets and alot less Lycra. Its seems that neither are care much about here even in the heat and on the roads. Cycling has a relaxed approached here.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby KenGS » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:42 pm

We need to change this to the "MHLs and nothing but MHLs" thread
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:26 pm

human909 wrote:Getting back to helmets......

Alot less helmets and alot less Lycra.


And another of your personal faves - Lycra :roll:

Who me? Surely you jest, I wear Lycra myself.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:57 pm

il padrone wrote:BTW, any driver who cannot concentrate on the road AND monitor their vehicle speed at the same time should not have a licence to drive.

This.

It is one of those self-evident truths. It does not rely on fancy logic, or on some article of faith. It stands on its own.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:05 pm

warthog1 wrote:
il padrone wrote:BTW, any driver who cannot concentrate on the road AND monitor their vehicle speed at the same time should not have a licence to drive. Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.


Please :roll: what a simplistic argument. The level of noise insulation, improved vehicle dynamics, increased engine power and reduced speed limits 40 and 50 zones, make it very easy for ones speed to increase, particularly on a downhill stretch.

That excuses you driving at an unsafe speed?

Surely all of those things mean that you should be even more aware and in even better control. And you should not be pushing your own margin of error anything like as far.

warthog1 wrote:I use the cruise control even in a 50 zone at times to remove the level of attention required to stay at or below the speed limit. Becomes more difficult where there is increased traffic.

I assume what you mean here is that you cannot use cruise control when there is a lot of traffic..?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:28 pm

il padrone wrote:Of course driver attitudes are the key. However there are plenty of speed camera signs in Italy. People do not necessarily follow the limits (which are much lower than in Aus) but they drive with an awareness and care for the other road user. And they slow down very readily when the limit changes and/or there is a need to do so. In short, they 'give a damn', unlike Australian drivers.

My favourite place to drive. People know where they are going, they don't dawdle while they umm and ahh about which way they're going. All you have to do is not be in their way, and they won't be in yours. Except in Rome traffic, but there's not a lot you can do about that...

Driving down the autostrada, heading across Abruzzo towards Pescara, doing about 175kmh in a 110kmh limit. So dawdling a bit. Carabinieri come up behind at rate of knots, siren and lights going. But it's ok, they just wanted me out of the way. Drive past the regular police a few kms further along, but they don't care either.

And whatever speed you're going, there will always be a Mercedes going faster.

Thing is, the Italians are more technically competent than Australian drivers, taken as an average. They need to be, given how many of them there are, buzzing around the place.

Oh yes, coolest police car I've ever seen. Middle of Rome. Lamborghini Gallardo, all decked out with the livery and the lights. And then some nong went and crashed it. :roll:

Their casualty rate is higher, but that is partly because of the roads they drive on - way more hazards per km - it's not all about speeds and driver attitudes.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:26 pm

Your last 3 posts. Fantastic mate.
If you are in Italy great 175 in a 110 zone no worries at all. Higher casualty rate sure, there is a bit of increased risk.

In Australia OTOH stick to within 3km/h of the speed limit or you have no right being on the road, the sheer incompetence demands you surrender your licence immediately.

This thread is the best :mrgreen:
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