Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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Thoglette
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:20 pm

g-boaf wrote:They weren't sport orientated riders, just normal people on normal non sporty bikes commuting about, sometimes with bags hanging from the bars. And wearing helmets.


And you've managed to completely miss the point.

You're confusing anti-helmet with anti-MHL.

And I'll say "again" because we've been over this ground several times already in this thread.

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:22 pm

Thoglette wrote:
g-boaf wrote:They weren't sport orientated riders, just normal people on normal non sporty bikes commuting about, sometimes with bags hanging from the bars. And wearing helmets.


And you've managed to completely miss the point.

You're confusing anti-helmet with anti-MHL.

And I'll say "again" because we've been over this ground several times already in this thread.

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip.


And you are missing my point. I don't care if the helmet laws are gone - if they are, great, perfect, but it's not just going to make everything all great and wonderful by getting rid of that law. There are not suddenly going to be heaps of people riding just because that law is gone.

Sure, they won't have to wear a helmet, but they'll still only just ride on paths or cycleways because they'll be terrified they are going to be wiped out by some crazy driver.

Getting people actually riding for transport purposes in places where there aren't pretty cycleways or separate infrastructure will take a big change in the way people drive around bike riders. I'm guessing some pretty serious penalties that are easy to enforce is going to be the thing that will change driver behaviour.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:24 pm

g-boaf wrote: I don't care if the helmet laws are gone -
....
Getting people actually riding for transport purposes in places where there aren't pretty cycleways or separate infrastructure will take a big change in the way people drive around bike riders. I'm guessing some pretty serious penalties that are easy to enforce is going to be the thing that will change driver behaviour.


I agree about the driver behaviour but you still miss the point of MHLs. They're not about saving lives - they are about punishing cyclists.

Helmet laws are part of the subjugation of cyclists by the car culture, they are both symptomatic and emblematic of "driver attitudes".

They promote victim blaming: if the rider isn't wearing a helmet it's not the drivers fault, and anyway, it can't be the driver's fault because cycling is inherently dangerous (otherwise there wouldn't be helmet laws, would there?)

Mandatory helmet laws and similarly silly regulations and punative punishments (e.g. anti "dink" rules, excessive fines for missing bells) will be removed if "driver attitudes" actually change. How? Either as part of the cause or as a consequence.

As part of the cause if removed as part of a "progressive" suite of "pro cyclist" activities, such as enacted & enforced safe passing legisation; strict liability and a raft of "anti-car" policy actions: money spend on alternatives to private car use; return of parking spaces to productive uses; reductions in speed limits; etc etc etc

As a consequence because once it is "obvious" that car drivers, not helmets, are the key determinant in cyclist traffic injuries, And MHLs are redundant, ridiculous red tape.

As long as not wearing a helmet is grounds for stop-and-search plus a $500 fine you should care.
As long as not wearing a helmet is grounds for excusing assault or ignoring negligence resulting in injury you should care.

* yes, those words, and literally. As in "cockroaches on wheels". As in Magda. As in your favourite Farcebok page.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:29 pm

^^Not happening with our populist politicians, whose primary and secondary concerns are re-election.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:21 am

warthog1 wrote:
human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I'm sick of being categorized as part of the problem with driver behaviour simply because I am a cycling enthusiast.

Since when has this been happening? I certainly haven't seen it. But I've seen people often choose to interpret it this way.....................



Your logic doesn't follow here.


That really does call for some google-fu, right there. :lol: I know exactly what you're getting at WH, and it's spot on.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby TrikeTragic » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:37 pm

I feel like I might be a salmon here (swimming upstream and against the current...)
Background:
I came to adult cycling in the early 1980's in my mid-20's - and from riding road motorbikes where helmets were mandatory anyway. That gives you a clue to my age now :) ....I married a nurse - who worked in Emergency Departments and high care wards, and who had seen more than her share of cyclists with head injuries. Riding a bike without a helmet was not a marriage-sustaining option.
I wore a bike helmet from the day I got my steel framed 10 speed roadie, the helmet modelled on other sports helmets and before even "Stack Hats"...I've had two serious accidents in my 40-ish years of cycling, both involved concussion and the destruction of the helmet I was wearing at the time. I'm still here to tell the tales, though. :wink: I'm not a scientist or engineer, I understand Australia is one of the few countries in the world with MHLs.
So:
Legislation that made helmets mandatory has no particular impact on me - I would wear a helmet every time I rode in any case. I regard people who ride without a helmet as "temporary Australians", (if I was just a touch older I might "tut tut"...) in a similar way that I regard people who continue to smoke as choosing to put their life at unnecessary risk, and perhaps uncaring of the impact on others and cost to society if it all goes wrong.
My take on the anti-MHL argument - you can write about it here all you like, you can theorise or rationalize to your heart's content but if you want law changed, talk to a politician (or at least make one listen), or even become one! So if there was a postal survey like the SSM one, and the question was "Would you like the legislation changed to enable cyclists to choose to wear a helmet or not?" my response would be "No".

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:24 pm

TrikeTragic, I understand your position and respect that you wish to wear a helmet when you ride.

Now I could cite all sorts of stats on the probability of getting a head injury on a bike (very low) or the like, but I have one simple question:

Why the desire to dictate other people's choice?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:00 pm

TrikeTragic wrote:I married a nurse - who worked in Emergency Departments and high care wards, and who had seen more than her share of cyclists with head injuries.


By that logic we should mandate that all elderly people wear helmets 24/7.
They are a cohort that fall over like nine pins and suffer fatal head strikes as a frequent result.
Football players, rugby players, netballers, ladder climbers, stair users, car drivers etc etc etc.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:20 am

warthog1 wrote:
TrikeTragic wrote:I married a nurse - who worked in Emergency Departments and high care wards, and who had seen more than her share of cyclists with head injuries.


By that logic we should mandate that all elderly people wear helmets 24/7.
They are a cohort that fall over like nine pins and suffer fatal head strikes as a frequent result.
Football players, rugby players, netballers, ladder climbers, stair users, car drivers etc etc etc.


Yeah, I don't get that. I guess it's been drilled into us for years that cycling is so dangerous you have to wear a helmet. When in reality, the actual number of 'unplanned get-offs' is pretty small, just like walking for most people.

After watching the kids soccer games, they are much more likely to fall over playing soccer than riding their bikes. I haven't seen them fall off on a path/road area for ages. Mountain biking is a different matter, nearly one get-off each time we ride, but they are still learning at that.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:23 am

bychosis wrote:
Yeah, I don't get that. I guess it's been drilled into us for years that cycling is so dangerous you have to wear a helmet.


That's because you choose to accept that.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby TrikeTragic » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:25 am

DavidS wrote:TrikeTragic, I understand your position and respect that you wish to wear a helmet when you ride.

Now I could cite all sorts of stats on the probability of getting a head injury on a bike (very low) or the like, but I have one simple question:

Why the desire to dictate other people's choice?

DS


No, that's not my desire. I do have a view about whether the legislation is "right" or "wrong", that's not my point. My point is - there is legislation made by people you and I vote to represent us. If you don't agree with the legislation, then there are ways to have it changed.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:03 pm

Not true TT. Your real key point is this...
My take on the anti-MHL argument - you can write about it here all you like, you can theorise or rationalize to your heart's content but if you want law changed, talk to a politician (or at least make one listen), or even become one!

The discussion here is all about driving in wedges, and the people who post here often/a lot/ way more than they really should, don't do a thing about changing the law apart from posting stuff here. Words here will never = true cycling advocacy because the tone is often waving the fist hostile and how someone else needs to fix it.

Meantime in the real world, I am just back from a shortish ride to the mailbox to get my yes vote in. Waved to a pair of highway patrol officers, they waved back, pulled up beside me and rolled down the window, "Looks like rain, enjoy your ride, See ya round". I did, got back before getting wet and I did so all without a lid.
No biggy and it happens all around Australia each and every day just nobody mentions it here because they are out doing other stuff not posting endless words.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:06 pm

TrikeTragic wrote:
No, that's not my desire. I do have a view about whether the legislation is "right" or "wrong", that's not my point. My point is - there is legislation made by people you and I vote to represent us. If you don't agree with the legislation, then there are ways to have it changed.

Cheers


What are those ways precisely?
We are an (outgroup) minority and as such don't have the electoral pull to force any change.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm

TrikeTragic wrote:No, that's not my desire. I do have a view about whether the legislation is "right" or "wrong", that's not my point. My point is - there is legislation made by people you and I vote to represent us. If you don't agree with the legislation, then there are ways to have it changed.

You make it sound so easy. In reality it is extremely difficult and often effectively impossible.

But you are right we do want legislation changed. And for legislative change to occur community discussion is essential. What is occurring here is community discussion. Action is also essential such action has evolved out of threads like this.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:53 pm

baabaa wrote:Not true TT. Your real key point is this...
My take on the anti-MHL argument - you can write about it here all you like, you can theorise or rationalize to your heart's content but if you want law changed, talk to a politician (or at least make one listen), or even become one!

The discussion here is all about driving in wedges, and the people who post here often/a lot/ way more than they really should, don't do a thing about changing the law apart from posting stuff here. Words here will never = true cycling advocacy because the tone is often waving the fist hostile and how someone else needs to fix it.

Meantime in the real world, I am just back from a shortish ride to the mailbox to get my yes vote in. Waved to a pair of highway patrol officers, they waved back, pulled up beside me and rolled down the window, "Looks like rain, enjoy your ride, See ya round". I did, got back before getting wet and I did so all without a lid.
No biggy and it happens all around Australia each and every day just nobody mentions it here because they are out doing other stuff not posting endless words.


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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:45 pm

human909 wrote:
TrikeTragic wrote:No, that's not my desire. I do have a view about whether the legislation is "right" or "wrong", that's not my point. My point is - there is legislation made by people you and I vote to represent us. If you don't agree with the legislation, then there are ways to have it changed.

You make it sound so easy. In reality it is extremely difficult and often effectively impossible.

But you are right we do want legislation changed. And for legislative change to occur community discussion is essential. What is occurring here is community discussion. Action is also essential such action has evolved out of threads like this.


And by joining in the community discussion it brings us together. By discussing (not arguing) we might find a common ground that can be presented far and wide with the hope of changing the rules to suit our position and change the minds of those who had not previously considered the topic. If your opinion was one way or the other, but you had limited knowledge on the subject, joining in here would at least get you informed, and potentially add a few responses to your armoury for those who hav e the opposite opinion.

I think my opinion has moved somewhat since I began reading this thread. I now (and have for a while) think we should be reducing the need for helmets, but maintain the requirement to wear them if you are a kiddie or riding on 60km/h and higher roads. Elsewhere you should have the choice whether you want to or not.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby 1Rowdy1 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:25 pm

warthog1 wrote:
TrikeTragic wrote:


What are those ways precisely?
We are an (outgroup) minority and as such don't have the electoral pull to force any change.


More bikes are sold each year than cars, so the minority is not as small as most like to make out.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:32 pm

1Rowdy1 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
TrikeTragic wrote:


What are those ways precisely?
We are an (outgroup) minority and as such don't have the electoral pull to force any change.


More bikes are sold each year than cars, so the minority is not as small as most like to make out.


I like your positive outlook.
I'm not sure that means a majority of bicycle owners either identify as cyclists or take enough interest in MHLs to effect a change.
In fact given the history I'm sure they don't :(

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:54 pm

TrikeTragic wrote:
DavidS wrote:TrikeTragic, I understand your position and respect that you wish to wear a helmet when you ride.

Now I could cite all sorts of stats on the probability of getting a head injury on a bike (very low) or the like, but I have one simple question:

Why the desire to dictate other people's choice?

DS


No, that's not my desire. I do have a view about whether the legislation is "right" or "wrong", that's not my point. My point is - there is legislation made by people you and I vote to represent us. If you don't agree with the legislation, then there are ways to have it changed.

Cheers


Yes, but you are still supporting legislation which dictate's my choice when I ride a bicycle. May not be your desire but it is the impact of the legislation you support.

I'll also point out that one of the ways to have the legislation changed is to convince those who support such legislation to change their mind, feel like chaning your mind? :wink:

We'll still let you wear a helmet, well maybe . . .

Also, I do make a small amount of effort on this issue. Joined Freestyle cyclists, more to throw some money in than be active. I also went on the last helmet optional ride they held in Melbourne. I agree I could do more but I do have more pressing issues I'd like to see dealt with, although this one does impact me every day I ride to work.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:19 am

TrikeTragic wrote:
DavidS wrote:Why the desire to dictate other people's choice?

No, that's not my desire.


If that is not your desire then why would you desire to support keeping MHLs and dictate what cyclists should wear while cycling.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:21 am

1Rowdy1 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:What are those ways precisely?
We are an (outgroup) minority and as such don't have the electoral pull to force any change.

More bikes are sold each year than cars, so the minority is not as small as most like to make out.

The problem with this logic is that there are a lot more bikes out there than there are cyclists. There are very many people that would absolutely NOT consider themselves cyclists, who never the less have a bike or three in the shed collecting dust.

Sorry I can't find a source for this, but I've seen a statistic quoted that the average distance ridden for each new bike sold is only a few hundred km before being junked or sold or left to rot.
Last edited by uart on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:27 pm

^^You've done me a disservice there with those quotes :( lol

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:16 pm

warthog1 wrote:^^You've done me a disservice there with those quotes :( lol

Whoops - just fixed it. :)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:13 pm

Thankyou :)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:35 pm

uart wrote:The problem with this logic is that there are a lot more bikes out there than there are cyclists. There are very many people that would absolutely NOT consider themselves cyclists, who never the less have a bike or three in the shed collecting dust.


Which brings us back to the key question: why is the bike now collecting dust? What happened to this neophyte non-cyclist that put them off riding around as a non-cyclist?

What is it that we as a society are doing that leads to this result, where the car gets used and the cycle collects dust?

That's a bigger question than just MHLs, but the only decent data we have (Heart foundation 2011 or there abouts) suggests that MHLs are a strong contributor to this. Not the strongest by any means, but up there.
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