Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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London Boy
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby London Boy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:51 pm

bychosis wrote:Many people wear helmets for 'dangerous' activities. It is not uncommon for skiiers and snowboarders to wear helmets.

Yeah, I understand Michael Schumacher was wearing a helmet as well.

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feral grasshopper
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby feral grasshopper » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:03 pm

London Boy wrote:
bychosis wrote:Many people wear helmets for 'dangerous' activities. It is not uncommon for skiiers and snowboarders to wear helmets.

Yeah, I understand Michael Schumacher was wearing a helmet as well.


Touché!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:11 pm

Scintilla wrote:Most of the sports you have listed actually have NO mandatory law about helmet-use (hang-gliding I'm not sure about), and regardless, to compare the risks of these activities with just riding a bicycle along a city, suburban, or country road is facetious to an extreme.

I’ve either written it poorly, or you’ve misunderstood. I wasn’t comparing Riding a bicycle on a country road to those activities. My point was that even though there are no mandatory laws, when the risks are high people are choosing to wear helmets.

MTB, fast bunch rides, racing etc would continue to be moslty helmeted riders. Sunday arvo path rides etc would quite possibly see helmet use drop. I’d probably wear a helmet more than not, particularly as an example to my kids, but on a hot afternoon meander along a sharepath I’d rather wear a straw surfer style hat and protect myself against a more serious risk of skin cancer.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:57 am

Cyclophiliac wrote:If helmets aren't a deterrent in Darwin, is that because people just refuse to wear them and the authorities have given up try to rigorously enforce the MHL there? If so, that suggests an interesting course of action: anti-MHL "civil disobedience" across the country.


Sure, civil disobedience. Just make sure your people are Aboriginal, otherwise you've a long wait. Darwin is a special case, as is much of the northern half of Australia.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:26 pm

bychosis wrote:
Scintilla wrote:Most of the sports you have listed actually have NO mandatory law about helmet-use (hang-gliding I'm not sure about), and regardless, to compare the risks of these activities with just riding a bicycle along a city, suburban, or country road is facetious to an extreme.

I’ve either written it poorly, or you’ve misunderstood. I wasn’t comparing Riding a bicycle on a country road to those activities. My point was that even though there are no mandatory laws, when the risks are high people are choosing to wear helmets.

Yes, got that bit. I was just clarifying a common misnomer that so many helmet-law-afficionados commonly jump on board about - that SO many other common sporting activities are using helmets these days that it is all just a new social trend.

Waiting for the new AFL-helmet laws. American gridiron use them and look at how much safer that is :P :roll:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:31 pm

fat and old wrote:Sure, civil disobedience. Just make sure your people are Aboriginal, otherwise you've a long wait. Darwin is a special case, as is much of the northern half of Australia.


The NT dropped the helmet laws for riders on shared paths WAY back in 1994 - just 2 years after the Feds had forced the law upon them. They had enough brains to realise the whole thing was a crock of sh**. $25 fines and no helmets on paths meant that police just stopped bothering with enforcement.

I was up in Darwin last year - some/many people choose to wear helmets, even on paths. But many do NOT and it is all down to personal choice.

Civil disobedience, on a large scale, is the ONLY way we will be getting this crackpot law repealed, so start at it now. I generally refuse to wear a helmet for most shorter rides about town. On longer country tours I wear one, as I regard time-exposure to be the greatest risk factor. But I have no illusions about the protection value of a helmet in any motor vehicle collision. Saw the results of that with a friend's tragic death last year. Helmet made ZERO difference. Let's deal with the REAL elephant-in-the-room!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:09 pm

Civil disobedience gets awfully expensive in some areas and some states. There is a time and a place for it and at the moment it isn't everywhere and all the time.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:17 pm

It has to start somewhere. Sue Abbott has laid the gauntlet down already; she needs our support.

Another lady who laid down the gauntlet:

Image

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:34 am

Scintilla wrote:
fat and old wrote:Sure, civil disobedience. Just make sure your people are Aboriginal, otherwise you've a long wait. Darwin is a special case, as is much of the northern half of Australia.


The NT dropped the helmet laws for riders on shared paths WAY back in 1994 - just 2 years after the Feds had forced the law upon them. They had enough brains to realise the whole thing was a crock of sh**. $25 fines and no helmets on paths meant that police just stopped bothering with enforcement.



The fines added up for some in the community, people jumped on the bandwagon and the law was modified due to the "unfairness" of it all for some. The police didn't stop enforcing it, otherwise there'd have been no change.

Saw the results of that with a friend's tragic death last year. Helmet made ZERO difference


Anecdote.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:23 am

fat and old wrote:
Saw the results of that with a friend's tragic death last year. Helmet made ZERO difference


Anecdote.

No, it is a fact.

Helmets are not designed to protect from motor vehicle impacts, only the sort of impact sustained by a person falling off a bicycle onto a paved surface (standardised head-form falling 2 metres onto hard surface; equal to about 20 kmh impact speed).

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:42 am

Scintilla wrote:
fat and old wrote:
Saw the results of that with a friend's tragic death last year. Helmet made ZERO difference


Anecdote.

No, it is a fact.

Helmets are not designed to protect from motor vehicle impacts, only the sort of impact sustained by a person falling off a bicycle onto a paved surface (standardised head-form falling 2 metres onto hard surface; equal to about 20 kmh impact speed).


I think the 'anecdote' reference is that it was one incident and hardly scientific in examination. It is probably a little flippant in response to discussion of a fatality. Many of the 'helmet saved my life' clan use similar anecdotal evidence of a helmet in one crash 'saving' them from certain death. Anecdotal evidence with no scientific backing.

I fully agree that a foam bucket wont do much in the event of a crash with a car or truck though.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:29 am

Scintilla wrote:It has to start somewhere.

And I've been part of 'starting' (continuing) it. But like I've said there is a time and a place which is dependent on many factors.

Scintilla wrote:Sue Abbott has laid the gauntlet down already; she needs our support.

She has and all the respect to her. She has also STOPPED cycling due to police harassment on the issue.

fat and old wrote:
Saw the results of that with a friend's tragic death last year. Helmet made ZERO difference
Anecdote.

Fair call. But like has been pointed out it is simply the counter anecdote to 'a helmet saved my life'. The conclusion that can be readily reached through both anecdotes and statistics is helmets CAN be effective and sometimes they CAN be ineffective.

Like has been said numerous times the effectiveness is hardly the issue when cycling injuries that would be reduced by helmets are so few and far between particularly for more sedate forms of cycling.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:55 pm

human909 wrote:
fat and old wrote:
Saw the results of that with a friend's tragic death last year. Helmet made ZERO difference
Anecdote.

Fair call. But like has been pointed out it is simply the counter anecdote to 'a helmet saved my life'. The conclusion that can be readily reached through both anecdotes and statistics is helmets CAN be effective and sometimes they CAN be ineffective.



Twas a response to the

1. Often used word when a pro-helmet argument is put forward.

2. The same word being used when I recounted my brothers cycling death from head injuries sustained while not wearing a helmet (pre MHL's). I accept it as anecdote, just keeping the conversation on an even keel.

As you well know, I am pro-choice, anti-window dressing. :)

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Meanwhile, across the dutch

Postby Thoglette » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:15 pm

Thanks to BSNYC


"Evaluation of New Zealand’s bicycle helmet law" Colin F Clarke NZMJ 10 February 2012, Vol 125 No 1349; (discussed on the NZ MHL page on Wikipedia)
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Meanwhile, across the dutch

Postby Scott_C » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:50 pm

Thoglette wrote:"Evaluation of New Zealand’s bicycle helmet law" Colin F Clarke NZMJ 10 February 2012, Vol 125 No 1349;


The full article is freely available online here:
https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/read-th ... cle-clarke

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:25 pm

human909 wrote:
Scintilla wrote:Sue Abbott has laid the gauntlet down already; she needs our support.

She has and all the respect to her. She has also STOPPED cycling due to police harassment on the issue.


Yes. I think that the last straw was when she was riding near her home, about 20km out of a small country town (Scone), on a dead end gravel road that sees half a dozen cars a day. A "concerned citizen" phoned the police to say "she's at it again" and they sent a squad car all the way out there just to book here. It really is an absurd situation IMHO.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:02 pm

Yep. I am not prepared to throw money to the wind simply to make a statement regarding helmets. I am sick of getting fined for stupid reasons, I've given enough money to the government fine department that I can't be bothered the hassle of more fines for going helmetless. That said I am happy to join protests with both safety in numbers and media attention if fines occur.

One of the early helmet-less rides in Melbourne had police descend on it and start fining people. The one last year had tacit approval from the authorities though one or two were fine on the way to the event.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:12 pm

uart wrote:A "concerned citizen" phoned the police to say "she's at it again" and they sent a squad car all the way out there just to book here. It really is an absurd situation IMHO.


This is, anecdotally, one of the reasons for even lower rates of cycling in regions than in urban centres: the local Plod is not stretched as far but has to ensure that the rule of law is maintained and respected, at least generally. Resulting in the sort of silliness reported above (Or cue youtube clip of PC Joe Penhale theatrics)
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:14 pm

human909, I see your point. I think there has been enough failed single ‘civil disobedience’ example to make a single attempt anything more than a futile fine payment.

I can’t justify riding solo without a helmet just to make a point when it could cost me $400. Back when it was $50-70 taking the punt wasn’t so bad.

Edit: the example of the plod being called out to fine good ol Sue was probably as a result of her being a local councillor. If she has not been ‘of inportance’ No one would have rung up because she would have been just that crazy lady up the road.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:18 pm

human909 wrote:Yep. I am not prepared to throw money to the wind simply to make a statement regarding helmets. I am sick of getting fined for stupid reasons, I've given enough money to the government fine department that I can't be bothered the hassle of more fines for going helmetless.....

IF I incur any TIN for not wearing a helmet, I DO NOT intend to make ANY payments to Victorian Government coffers. I *will* take a stand!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:12 pm

Scintilla wrote:IF I incur any TIN for not wearing a helmet, I DO NOT intend to make ANY payments to Victorian Government coffers. I *will* take a stand!


An interesting position to take. I give you a nod of respect in your general direction if you have thought this through entirely and would follow through.... But if ordered by the court to pay a penalty I'm curious on what "stand" you intend to take.

The thing about lawbreakers taking a stand is generally nobody notices. There have been plenty of marijuana smokers, drug dealers, and other law breakers who have 'taken a stand' and lost.

Likewise I once got a VIC fine that only occured due to my honesty. It was absurd and contrary to many years of previous policy. I could have taken a 'stand' but the bureaucracy would have won. Far easier just to pay to the coffers. If I felt indignant enough about the injustice I could readily recoup my financial losses by dodging the system and not adhering to the honesty system of payment.


For what it is worth I would probably contest a helmet fine if I received one. But I don't think it is as simple as not paying and "taking a stand" for your average citizen.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:18 pm

1. Non-payment.
2. Notification to court of intention to contest.
3. Seeking further legal (and other) advice. Freestyle Cyclists are developing a fund for this purpose.
4. Magistrates hearing. Presentation of my case about the deep belief I have that the law is false and unjust.
5. Undoubted finding of guilt. Larger fine imposed
6. My refusal to pay.
7. Possible sheriff confiscation of property.
8. If possible I will go to prison for non-payment rather than any property acquisition.

Along the way I will make a bit of noise. I do not expect that it would pan out in my favour, though I have heard of several in Victoria who have admitted the 'offence', and presented their case for non-wearing, and then been dismissed with no fine.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:55 pm

Probably an excersise in futility, but I have to respect a man who carries through with his beliefs.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:47 pm

Half a dozen Helmet Optional rides across Australia and NZ.

From my understanding it was only the Sydney cops who decided to turn up the notch on a police state attitude. 7 cop cars taken off other important duties to come out and find people for riding without helmets.

Apparently they claim they have no discretion. BS. That discretion is being chosen every day across Sydney, the State and the Nation.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:47 pm

Yes I was at the Melbourne ride.

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