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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:59 pm
by Mulger bill
uart wrote:https://tenplay.com.au/news/national/march-2018/freestyle-cyclists-arrange-nationwide-protest-of-australian-helmet-laws

From the above link:

“For every person that wants not to wear helmets, there is a large body of people that do,” an officer told a group of protesters who debated the decision to stop the protest.


So I wonder why the officer thinks that anyone is trying to stop that "large body of people" from doing so? It almost sounds like he might have a poor grasp of the meaning of "optional"

I've had that discussion a thousand times, not sure if it's deliberate or misunderstanding ignorance.
Usually followed by the rebellious martyr proudly declaring "I don't care if they ARE banned, I'll always wear my helmet!"

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:25 pm
by trailgumby
Thoglette wrote:
trailgumby wrote:I was talking about the claim they have no discretion. I challenged one of the officers on them not using their discretion and he said they have none. However, I've since learned that Sue earlier made the same challenge and got the same response.

I'm sure similar claims were made 40 years ago on Oxford St. :(

It's a load of cobblers: police officers use their discretion every day (it's the only way they can function). More to the point, the squad cars didn't arrive there accidentally. The plod was there on purpose, with very specific instructions, from the police hierarchy.


Correct on all counts m'lud.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:24 pm
by Mububban
Shall we start a "Mandatory Cycling Airbag" thread? :D

GBP240 for a crash-detecting auto inflating airbag neck brace helmet.....thingy.

Jump to 5:56 for the actual inflation/crash demo. The time jump link wouldn't work with the video preview:


Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:37 pm
by Thoglette
Mububban wrote:Shall we start a "Mandatory Cycling Airbag" thread?

Another airbag product? File it with airless tyres; shaft-drive and the other recurrent "innovations".

Back on topic, it is both an answer to a problem that doesn't exist (Ok, it doesn't mess your hair up quite so much but you still have to wear a silly plastic thingy) and it's not an answer to surviving being hit by a multi-ton motor vehicle.

<edit>it's not another one, it's a bad case of "it's them again". Some more info here on helmets.org</edit>

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:41 pm
by Arbuckle23
Mububban wrote:Shall we start a "Mandatory Cycling Airbag" thread? :D


I don't think it would help with a faceplant :P

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm
by ForkinGreat

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:29 pm
by brumby33
Riding to work this morning....was in a bit of a rush (Mondayitis on a Tuesday) got halfway to work and thought...something is missing....put my right hand on my head....oh s##t...forgot me bl@@dy helmet...man talk about becoming paranoid...every car magically turned into a cop car....felt good though i must say...forgot what it was like to have the wind in my hair :D

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:33 pm
by DavidS
ForkinGreat wrote:https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/bike-helmet-research-debunks-junk-science-20160921-4kx3m.html


Wow, debunks an argument no-one is making.

Image

DS

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:36 pm
by bychosis
brumby33 wrote:Riding to work this morning....was in a bit of a rush (Mondayitis on a Tuesday) got halfway to work and thought...something is missing....put my right hand on my head....oh s##t...forgot me bl@@dy helmet...man talk about becoming paranoid...every car magically turned into a cop car....felt good though i must say...forgot what it was like to have the wind in my hair :D

It is nice of your family to post this on your behalf. I’m sorry for their loss - surely you came to an untimely demise?

I popped out of the caravan on Monday morning and forgot to collect my helmet. Rather than wake the sleeping child I opted for a plastic bucket free ride, I too must be posting from the other side. I was nice with the wind in my (fast receding) hair. Whilst I was in no danger of meeting a police car, I did ride a little more cautiously on the gravel road and a bit of single track. Would not have enjoyed the lecture about crashing without a helmet when we had been insisting on helmets and life jackets for all when in the white water on the river.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:05 pm
by uart
brumby33 wrote:Riding to work this morning....was in a bit of a rush (Mondayitis on a Tuesday) got halfway to work and thought...something is missing....put my right hand on my head....oh s##t...forgot me bl@@dy helmet...


Image

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:12 pm
by brumby33
bychosis wrote:
brumby33 wrote:Riding to work this morning....was in a bit of a rush (Mondayitis on a Tuesday) got halfway to work and thought...something is missing....put my right hand on my head....oh s##t...forgot me bl@@dy helmet...man talk about becoming paranoid...every car magically turned into a cop car....felt good though i must say...forgot what it was like to have the wind in my hair :D

It is nice of your family to post this on your behalf. I’m sorry for their loss - surely you came to an untimely demise?

I popped out of the caravan on Monday morning and forgot to collect my helmet. Rather than wake the sleeping child I opted for a plastic bucket free ride, I too must be posting from the other side. I was nice with the wind in my (fast receding) hair. Whilst I was in no danger of meeting a police car, I did ride a little more cautiously on the gravel road and a bit of single track. Would not have enjoyed the lecture about crashing without a helmet when we had been insisting on helmets and life jackets for all when in the white water on the river.


Nup...no demise but i won't jinx myself ( touch wood) and no skin or scalp was sacrificed and gratefully my wallet intact...i was actually hoping most of the boys in blue had a day off after all their revenue raising hard work over Easter.

But yeah, after all these years of wearing the esky lid...I was halfway to work before i realised it was missing....didn't have time to turn back to get it.....but jeez i must say the 2nd half of my trip had me looking for cop cars...especially when its a $319 hit to the hip pocket. Being on a split shift, rode back home cautiously of course for lunch and me lid....unscathed just as I did back in the 70s

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:54 pm
by Thoglette
ForkinGreat wrote:https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/bike-helmet-research-debunks-junk-science-20160921-4kx3m.html

And what did they say (no, I can't be arsed watching minutes of SMH video rather than reading the text in a fraction of the time)

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:31 am
by Comedian
I know this might sound like a stretch but I watched this video last night on how we perceive and react to danger. He talks about how dangerous walking into a spiders web really is. "Once you've done it 500 times you wouldn't even notice". And he's right.

Once you've ridden to the local shops.. or bunnings.. or school hundreds of times you just don't perceive it as dangerous. But basically everyone just drives for these trips. I believe the median car trip in Brisbane is 3 k now.

We are so conditioned to cycling being dangerous.. that we just really think helmets are necessary. When I started riding it was a text every day to prove I was at work and not hospital. Then after a few months they get less frequent. And now after years you don't even think about it.

People have questioned why I'd gladly let my daughter ride without a helmet (she's 14). It's because while I worry about her riding to school .. I worry more about her forming transport habits that will lead to a sedentary life which will define her health. I see this as a certainty if she doesn't ride. Whereas riding without a helmet.. on an upright dutch bike on the footpath and bike path. I'm not really worried about that..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo62S0ulqhA

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:56 am
by uart
Thoglette wrote:
ForkinGreat wrote:https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/bike-helmet-research-debunks-junk-science-20160921-4kx3m.html

And what did they say (no, I can't be arsed watching minutes of SMH video rather than reading the text in a fraction of the time)

Just the usual stuff that we already know, about helmets being proven to be effective at reducing head and facial injuries, but of course nothing at all about the other social consequences like reduced participation or altered risk perception. And of course nothing about free choice or the actual risk levels involved in low speed cycling.

Talking about the proliferation of videos to make even the most basic points, I once saw someone post a 5 minute video to explain how to convert torque in foot-pounds into inch-pounds. I kid you not! Now you've probably already guessed that this video could have been summarized as "you times it by 12", but some well meaning idiot actually made a five minute video to explain that. :shock:

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:52 pm
by bychosis
Comedian wrote:People have questioned why I'd gladly let my daughter ride without a helmet (she's 14). It's because while I worry about her riding to school .. I worry more about her forming transport habits that will lead to a sedentary life which will define her health. I see this as a certainty if she doesn't ride. Whereas riding without a helmet.. on an upright dutch bike on the footpath and bike path. I'm not really worried about that..

While away over Easter I was instructing my kids to wear a helmet for 'speed or stunts'. No need for a lid for a quick trip to the loos, but wear one for the pump track, MTB track or the big gravel hill. Not sure what other parents thought, but helmet optional seemed to be the theme.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:45 pm
by Comedian
bychosis wrote:
Comedian wrote:People have questioned why I'd gladly let my daughter ride without a helmet (she's 14). It's because while I worry about her riding to school .. I worry more about her forming transport habits that will lead to a sedentary life which will define her health. I see this as a certainty if she doesn't ride. Whereas riding without a helmet.. on an upright dutch bike on the footpath and bike path. I'm not really worried about that..

While away over Easter I was instructing my kids to wear a helmet for 'speed or stunts'. No need for a lid for a quick trip to the loos, but wear one for the pump track, MTB track or the big gravel hill. Not sure what other parents thought, but helmet optional seemed to be the theme.

Intelligent risk assessment :lol:

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:40 pm
by uart
bychosis wrote:While away over Easter I was instructing my kids to wear a helmet for 'speed or stunts'. No need for a lid for a quick trip to the loos, but wear one for the pump track, MTB track or the big gravel hill. Not sure what other parents thought, but helmet optional seemed to be the theme.

Yes good call, a helmet is a good idea for the higher risk activities. You do however realise that your kids need to wear one at all times to protect you from the looks of disapproval of other parents. ;)

Actually that reminds me of an incident about a year or two back down on the Ferleigh track near my place. There was a kid about 10yo riding lidless with his parents (both going fairly slow speed), but the kid had stopped for some reason and then took off really fast to try and catch them (by that time about 200m ahead). I'd just come up behind the kid at this point and decided to stay behind.

The kid did that thing that kids sometimes do, and concentrated so much on pedalling hard that his steering went all wonky, and he ended up flipping the front wheel right around and having quite a fall. The parents were clueless that he'd even come off, but I was right behind so I stopped to make sure he was ok. Because I saw it all unfold from just metres behind I knew he had scraped his knees and landed heavily on his arms, but I also knew that his head had made zero contact with anything.

So as I start helping the kid up and checking that he's ok, other people start gathering around an commenting on the lack of a helmet and saying stuff like : "He needs to go straight to hospital to get checked for head injuries".

I reply : "Nah, I saw it all from right behind, his head never even touched to pavement". But then I look around and see the absolutely filthy looks that they are all giving me. They obviously thought that I was his father (or possibly grandfather given my age), and let me tell you it was quite an uncomfortable situation.

Fortunately at this point the the parents had realised he was missing and come back, so I got back on my bike and did the old POQ. The kid was ok btw, just a few grazes and bruises, mainly to his hands and knees.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:37 pm
by Thoglette
uart wrote: But then I look around and see the absolutely filthy looks that they are all giving me. They obviously thought that I was his father (or possibly grandfather given my age), and let me tell you it was quite an uncomfortable situation.


The point of a child's helmet is to protect you from the disapproving stares of other parents - Yehuda Moon

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:25 pm
by London Boy
uart wrote:Just the usual stuff that we already know, about helmets being proven to be effective at reducing head and facial injuries ...

Did they miss the bit about them reducing injuries only if you happen to have the right sort of crash at the right speed?

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:38 pm
by uart
London Boy wrote:
uart wrote:Just the usual stuff that we already know, about helmets being proven to be effective at reducing head and facial injuries ...

Did they miss the bit about them reducing injuries only if you happen to have the right sort of crash at the right speed?

Yep.

But still people think that even low speed cycling on a bike path is dangerous. I know some (otherwise perfectly sane and reasonable) people who make a habit of harassing any other cyclists that they meet on our local bike path if they are lidless, regardless of what speed they're riding.

Yet it's completely legal for me to ride a skateboard down that same path lidless, and despite the probability of me coming off being at least 10 times higher than on my bike, no one would say boo. MHL has just totally skewed the perception of the safety of these things for those people who cannot think for themselves.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:53 pm
by BobtheBuilder
Not having read the previous 388 pages, I may be repeating an earlier point ...

If MHL laws were rational and evidence-based, surely helmets would be mandatory for the driver and all passengers in all motor vehicles, where head injuries are so much more prevalent.

I'd love to see the uproar that would cause!

I'm lucky enough to live in a small town where the police don't care about helmets, so I only wear them on the rare occasion when I'm in the uncivilised southeastern states or actually riding fast and dangerous (also rare!).

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:16 am
by Comedian
BobtheBuilder wrote:Not having read the previous 388 pages, I may be repeating an earlier point ...

If MHL laws were rational and evidence-based, surely helmets would be mandatory for the driver and all passengers in all motor vehicles, where head injuries are so much more prevalent.

I'd love to see the uproar that would cause!

I'm lucky enough to live in a small town where the police don't care about helmets, so I only wear them on the rare occasion when I'm in the uncivilised southeastern states or actually riding fast and dangerous (also rare!).

There is quality research that it makes sense. Clearly this is an area that is not something anyone wants to fund.. because who wants to be forced to wear a helmet in a car. Screw that!

https://www.monash.edu/muarc/research/our-publications/atsb160

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 am
by BobtheBuilder
Comedian wrote:
There is quality research that it makes sense. Clearly this is an area that is not something anyone wants to fund.. because who wants to be forced to wear a helmet in a car. Screw that!

https://www.monash.edu/muarc/research/our-publications/atsb160


I'm sure there is! Better research than that which says bike helmets make sense, yet even many cyclists are convinced that helmets are essential, though I'd be surprised if any car user had ever even considered wearing a helmet while driving!

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 am
by Comedian
uart wrote:
London Boy wrote:
uart wrote:Just the usual stuff that we already know, about helmets being proven to be effective at reducing head and facial injuries ...

Did they miss the bit about them reducing injuries only if you happen to have the right sort of crash at the right speed?

Yep.

But still people think that even low speed cycling on a bike path is dangerous. I know some (otherwise perfectly sane and reasonable) people who make a habit of harassing any other cyclists that they meet on our local bike path if they are lidless, regardless of what speed they're riding.

Yet it's completely legal for me to ride a skateboard down that same path lidless, and despite the probability of me coming off being at least 10 times higher than on my bike, no one would say boo. MHL has just totally skewed the perception of the safety of these things for those people who cannot think for themselves.

I remain convinced that peoples irrational fear of utility cycling is due to decades of brainwashing and a good dose of unfamiliarity with the activity.

They drive to the shops in the car all the time... done it likely thousands of times so they think it's safe. The only riding they have done is road cycling or mountain biking which is pretty dangerous.

It's been a good couple of generations now since virtually anyone rode to school, or to the local shops instead of driving. Unfamiliarity has made it seem dangerous. I watched this excellent video on how people deal with fear that are doing things that are really dangerous.

https://www.ted.com/talks/chris_hadfield_what_i_learned_from_going_blind_in_space

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:23 am
by Comedian
BobtheBuilder wrote:
Comedian wrote:
There is quality research that it makes sense. Clearly this is an area that is not something anyone wants to fund.. because who wants to be forced to wear a helmet in a car. Screw that!

https://www.monash.edu/muarc/research/our-publications/atsb160


I'm sure there is! Better research than that which says bike helmets make sense, yet even many cyclists are convinced that helmets are essential, though I'd be surprised if any car user had ever even considered wearing a helmet while driving!

Yes, and academia these days is all about getting sponsors to fund research. Given that the states who have their transport policies run by car centric organisations - having research done like this isn't going to happen. On the other hand, there is lots of money for research that supports MHL. I'm pretty sure this is one of the primary reasons why our research doesn't match research from anywhere else..