helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by 58%

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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:26 pm

jules21 wrote:it's a problem. disposables, which were suggested in a weekend newspaper article on the topic, are unlikely to meet the mandatory Australian Standard. like much of the article, they didn't think that out very carefully..


I'm wondering if the Australian Standard could be relaxed a little to permit the use of disposable helmets for the Melbourne Bicycle Scheme. This is assuming that the disposable ones provide a reasonable amount of head protection.

I suppose a comparitive would be motorbike hire. If you hire a motorbike you are still required to use a helmet, unless your in Bali :wink:
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:45 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I'm wondering if the Australian Standard could be relaxed a little to permit the use of disposable helmets for the Melbourne Bicycle Scheme. This is assuming that the disposable ones provide a reasonable amount of head protection.

the AS is a standard for helmets in providing head protection. what would be relaxed is the requirement to comply with it. i doubt that would occur - i'd suggest that setting a standard and then allowing people to not meet it would be viewed as a legal minefield. you don't have to think too hard what would happen the first time someone injured their head while wearing a 'disposable' helmet. you'd like to think they'd use common sense and restraint, but there are major law firms dedicated to tempting you into the more lucrative option..
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby twizzle » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:22 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
twizzle wrote:No, I was actually talking about astronauts doing spacewalks.

Well, like I said, you don't appear to know who you were talking about, so it wouldn't surprise me. :roll:


No, that would be *you* don't appear to know who I am talking about. Which, after looking back at your previous posts seems to be a problem you exhibit often. You know, there are better things to do with your time...

So, if you'll answer my question, were you considering only people who cycle in the exact same circumstances as you, or would your "let them die" attitude also apply to, say, a 4 year old child on a plastic, training-wheeled bike, playing on a grass surface?


Four years olds are legally required to wear a helmet.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:35 pm

twizzle wrote:Four years olds are legally required to wear a helmet.

So by your previous post (insisting on no medical attention in any circumstance for anyone who doesn't wear a helmet), you think a child who has played on a plastic, training-wheeled bike on a grass surface deserves to be left to die in any kind of medical emergency (related or not to the bike)?

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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:49 pm

Argue the post, not the poster

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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:56 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Argue the post, not the poster

I'm sorry, but I'm really not sure how one politely argues against a claim that anyone who doesn't believe in helmet use deserves to die. :?
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:14 pm

I have put up the warning generically to remind all posters to be nice. If you are not happy with someones post, you can report it using the reporting function.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:47 pm

jules21 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I'm wondering if the Australian Standard could be relaxed a little to permit the use of disposable helmets for the Melbourne Bicycle Scheme. This is assuming that the disposable ones provide a reasonable amount of head protection.

the AS is a standard for helmets in providing head protection. what would be relaxed is the requirement to comply with it. i doubt that would occur

Nothing needs to be 'relaxed' nor repealed. The Commisioner for Police could simply issue a directive for his officers not to enforce the rule upon people riding Bikeshare bikes. Simple. And it has been done before relating to other rules.

As far as the alleged liability law minefield - I wonder how things are going in the NT, now that they've repealed the helmet compulsion for adults on bike paths and trails, and police are generally not enforcing helmet rules upon anyone?

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1114.html

The really sad side to helmet compulsion?

At first the law was enforced, aboriginal children being particularly vulnerable and suffering overnight detention for not paying fines.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:58 pm

il padrone wrote: Nothing needs to be 'relaxed' nor repealed. The Commisioner for Police could simply issue a directive for his officers not to enforce the rule upon people riding Bikeshare bikes. Simple. And it has been done before relating to other rules.

i'd be flabbergasted if that were true. the police have a very clear role - to enforce the law. they have discretionary powers, but not for those purposes. that's clearly something that would be enacted at a policy level. the police are policy takers, not makers.

il padrone wrote: As far as the alleged liability law minefield - I wonder how things are going in the NT, now that they've repealed the helmet compulsion for adults on bike paths and trails, and police are generally not enforcing helmet rules upon anyone?

when you make a law, it must be justified. for right or wrong - the NT has obviously decided helmet laws are not justified - but it's clear.

but to say that most cyclists must wear a helmet for safety reasons, while a small subset of cyclists for whom it's inconvenient needn't wear one, would be difficult to justify. you'd need to explain why it wasn't safe for other cyclists to ride without a helmet, while it was for bike hirers. the proposal appears to be "nah, it's not any safer, but it's just convenient and we want more bike hires." i doubt that's going to fly, but who knows.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:01 pm

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1114.html wrote:The fine for not wearing a cycle helmet is AUD25. If not paid within 3 months, this rises to AUD135 and the offender (children included) faces court followed by a detention centre or jail.

Sounds a bit dubious. I didn't think Australia allowed imprisonment for debtors.

Anyway, I'm more interested in this:
The compromise to continue to require helmets on roads was to avoid a penalty from the Federal Government.

Anyone know anything about that? :?

jules21 wrote:but to say that most cyclists must wear a helmet for safety reasons, while a small subset of cyclists for whom it's inconvenient needn't wear one, would be difficult to justify. you'd need to explain why it wasn't safe for other cyclists to ride without a helmet, while it was for bike hirers.

Agreed. Would be much easier and more sensible to just allow helmetless riding on dedicated bike paths, pedestrian-shared areas, and perhaps roads with a 50kph or lower speed limit, regardless of what sort of bike the rider has.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:51 pm

jules21 wrote:i'd be interested to see credible studies with contrary findings. their apparent absence speaks more to me than your concerns about the robustness of this study.


I'm sure we all would. Not gonna happen tho'.

Who'd fund the research? Govt and other helmet sponsors? NFL! Antis? Yeah, like they 've got the dough.

Their absence also speaks to me, but in a slightly more cynical tone.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby twizzle » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:26 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Argue the post, not the poster

I'm sorry, but I'm really not sure how one politely argues against a claim that anyone who doesn't believe in helmet use deserves to die. :?


I never said someone deserved to die, to require resuscitation they already have to be dead.

And feel free to leave your helmet off when riding.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby The Womble » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:39 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
twizzle wrote:No, I was actually talking about astronauts doing spacewalks.

Well, like I said, you don't appear to know who you were talking about, so it wouldn't surprise me. :roll:

So, if you'll answer my question, were you considering only people who cycle in the exact same circumstances as you, or would your "let them die" attitude also apply to, say, a 4 year old child on a plastic, training-wheeled bike, playing on a grass surface?

Grass has blades. The 4 year old should be wearing a helmet :|
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:26 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I'm sure we all would. Not gonna happen tho'.

Who'd fund the research? Govt and other helmet sponsors? NFL! Antis? Yeah, like they 've got the dough.

cycling as a sustainable form of transport is flavour of the month right now with left wing types, that include academics. one of them came out recently in favour of repealing helmet laws, but i think it was just opinion, rather than anything backed by evidence. i just don't think the argument stacks up.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:34 pm

jules21 wrote:flavour of the month right now with left wing types, that include academics. one of them came out recently in favour of repealing helmet laws, but i think it was just opinion, rather than anything backed by evidence.

You win!

Gold medal for "Off the Cuff" :P

Do you mean this study by Dr Chris Rissel and Dr Alex Voukelatos ??

Journal of the Australasian College of Road Safety - report on the research findings and conclusions

Science Alert wrote:Associate Professor Chris Rissel from the Sydney School of Public Health collated annual hospital data for head injuries resulting from cycling accidents from 1988 to 2008 and compared these to cyclists' arm injuries during the corresponding period.


Journal of the Australasian College of Road Safety wrote:PEER-REVIEWED PAPERS....

.....The effects of bicycle helmet legislation on cycling-related injury: The ratio of head to arm injuries over time – by A Voukelatos and C Rissel
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:16 pm

Nice.

I quite like this one...

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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby martinjs » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:48 pm

il padrone wrote:
jules21 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I'm wondering if the Australian Standard could be relaxed a little to permit the use of disposable helmets for the Melbourne Bicycle Scheme. This is assuming that the disposable ones provide a reasonable amount of head protection.

the AS is a standard for helmets in providing head protection. what would be relaxed is the requirement to comply with it. i doubt that would occur

Nothing needs to be 'relaxed' nor repealed. The Commisioner for Police could simply issue a directive for his officers not to enforce the rule upon people riding Bikeshare bikes. Simple. And it has been done before relating to other rules.

As far as the alleged liability law minefield - I wonder how things are going in the NT, now that they've repealed the helmet compulsion for adults on bike paths and trails, and police are generally not enforcing helmet rules upon anyone?

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1114.html

The really sad side to helmet compulsion?

At first the law was enforced, aboriginal children being particularly vulnerable and suffering overnight detention for not paying fines.


I don't think that has any thing to do with the law as it doesn't happen any were else, plain and simply it's racism and wrong, if it happens.

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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:37 am

il padrone wrote:Do you mean this study by Dr Chris Rissel and Dr Alex Voukelatos ??

Journal of the Australasian College of Road Safety - report on the research findings and conclusions

Science Alert wrote:Associate Professor Chris Rissel from the Sydney School of Public Health collated annual hospital data for head injuries resulting from cycling accidents from 1988 to 2008 and compared these to cyclists' arm injuries during the corresponding period.


Journal of the Australasian College of Road Safety wrote:PEER-REVIEWED PAPERS....

.....The effects of bicycle helmet legislation on cycling-related injury: The ratio of head to arm injuries over time – by A Voukelatos and C Rissel


I think they could have summed up their conclusion more simply by writing "We don't know". Once again, the data collection to draw any useful conclusions just doesn't exist.

FWIW - co-workers who live locally (< 10km) have discussed riding to work, but the main impediment they bring up is that they don't want to get sweaty. My building has excellent bike storage and shower/locker facilities, but for the average person it's just too much bother. In this region, the 'local' shops are usually not that local and everyone has a car, so it's not like you are comparing the inconvenience of waiting for public transport vs. cycling. The only places where I see significant cycling in the local area is in the high-density housing areas close to the city centre, where people often *don't* have cars and public transport isn't convenient - it's really a choice between walking and cycling. As far as I can tell, the low rates for cycling is pretty much because there just isn't any reason for people to ride.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby simonn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:29 am

twizzle wrote:they don't want to get sweaty... ...for the average person it's just too much bother... ...everyone has a car... As far as I can tell, the low rates for cycling is pretty much because there just isn't any reason for people to ride.


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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby sogood » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:42 am

simonn wrote:
twizzle wrote:they don't want to get sweaty... ...for the average person it's just too much bother... ...everyone has a car... As far as I can tell, the low rates for cycling is pretty much because there just isn't any reason for people to ride.

+1

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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby simonn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:42 am

I have a problem with head injuries being used for statistics - counter intuitive as it is.

I had a decent stack this weekend - 35-45km/h, hit a pothole and over I go. Nasty road rash on right knee and helmet broke in 4 places. No blackout or concussion - have been there before so know what it feels like. However, 3-4 hours later started getting a very mild headache so went to hospital - keep in mind that I did get up at 04:00 so easily could have been tiredness and dehydration etc. Better safe than sorry though.

No problem with the brown bread, however, to paraphrase the doc when I asked what the injury would be recorded as for statistical purposes "Head injury. If the helmet broke it is counted as a head injury."

So it looks like that even if the helmet does it's preferred job of completely stopping a head injury it is/may be still counted as one should you attend hospital.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:56 am

simonn wrote:I asked what the injury would be recorded as for statistical purposes "Head injury. If the helmet broke it is counted as a head injury."


Oh dear, that means that we can't gain much from stats.

Shame about the fall simonn, hope you are OK
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby jules21 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:56 am


i think that study is dubious:
jules21 wrote:
The Sydney Morning Herald wrote:After the new laws, they found ''a continued but declining reduction in the ratio of head injuries to arm injuries [and] … it is likely that factors other than the mandatory helmet legislation reduced head injuries''.

umm.. if that ratio continued to fall, doesn't it suggest helmet laws may have contributed to it? the purpose of comparing head to arm injuries is to use arm injuries as a control - they shouldn't change due to helmet laws. if helmet laws are also useless, then the ratio may remain static. but it didn't - if fell, which they concede. then they conclude something completely adverse to what the data shows. so basically they've just expressed an opinion - in fact worse than that, it's contradicted by their own data. research fail.

in any case, it focuses on the effect of helmet laws in reducing injury, not on ridership rates.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby jules21 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:00 am

simonn wrote:So it looks like that even if the helmet does it's preferred job of completely stopping a head injury it is/may be still counted as one should you attend hospital.

when i banged up my elbow in a criterium, i was bailed up by the triage nurse at the hospital who insisted on me doing a sports injury survey before i received any treatment. fine.. ok.
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Re: helmets reduce head injury by 60% and brain injuries by

Postby martinjs » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:04 am

I just though of a possible issue when people are comparing cycling with other sport or physical activity in regard to injury's. Keep in mind I am not stating this a fact but rather an open ended question
Most sports where injury's occur are supervised sports or activities were all injury's are treated and probable recorded but in cycling a lot of us stack, clean up our selves, replace the helmet if necessary and get on our way.

If that's the case then all the data the anti mandatory helmet dudes are using is just plain wrong, and as for using the old your not likely to get a head injury for 300 years or what ever the claim was. What a load of cow manure, as we don't live for that long it's just more flawed statistics.

I suppose the real problem with this debate is no side and really present good HARD evidence.

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