Why So Close

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:33 am

Max wrote:
silkishuge wrote:Is it possible to look for alternate routes that are less busy. I try to avoid busy roads. I don't really believe in fighting for my rights, just to get home safe.


True enough, but at the same time, if we don't speak out for our rights, they're not really rights at all. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, you know?

On top of that, despite people's perceptions, it's the main roads that are actually the safer. Intersections are the major source of collisions in urban areas. Backstreet routes take you through a greater number of intersections and more often these are uncontrolled and leave the cyclist in a less clear situation regarding their obligations.

I prefer the predictability and routine of riding main roads. Once you have developed some basic skills to claim lane space and are using a rear view mirror it all becomes very straightforward.
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by BNA » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:42 am

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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:42 am

martinjs wrote:On the highway at least I think we as cyclist should be flexibly, after all is it fair to ask a road train weighing up to 200 tonnes to slow down to 50k's and hour or less and wait behind us until the road clears?

Yes.

Because it's the law.

If they can't deal with this, by one strategy or another, then maybe they should not be on the roads. Unless you're proposing some unique new change to legal responsibilities :?:

For the record, I have not ridden with road trains, but generally do find the drivers of large semis to be the most responsible and courteous drivers on the open highways, and often in urban areas as well.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Max » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:17 am

il padrone wrote:.. generally do find the drivers of large semis to be the most responsible and courteous drivers on the open highways, and often in urban areas as well.


I find this to be the case too. I work in an industrial area. Every other vehicle is a large truck driven by a professional truck driver. Those guys give me heaps of room, and if I'm stuck climbing a hill on a narrow road, they wait behind me. A big thumbs up to the truck drivers around Archerfield.

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Re: Why So Close

Postby The Womble » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:54 am

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:On the highway at least I think we as cyclist should be flexibly, after all is it fair to ask a road train weighing up to 200 tonnes to slow down to 50k's and hour or less and wait behind us until the road clears?

Yes.

Because it's the law.

If they can't deal with this, by one strategy or another, then maybe they should not be on the roads. Unless you're proposing some unique new change to legal responsibilities :?:

For the record, I have not ridden with road trains, but generally do find the drivers of large semis to be the most responsible and courteous drivers on the open highways, and often in urban areas as well.

No, you havent ridden with road trains. They get away with things out of town because whos going to report it? Youre laying unconcious on the roadside in a pool of your own blood. You do not tempt these guys to prove your point. 21 years living and riding in NQ
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Re: Why So Close

Postby martinjs » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:07 am

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:On the highway at least I think we as cyclist should be flexibly, after all is it fair to ask a road train weighing up to 200 tonnes to slow down to 50k's and hour or less and wait behind us until the road clears?

Yes.

Because it's the law.

If they can't deal with this, by one strategy or another, then maybe they should not be on the roads. Unless you're proposing some unique new change to legal responsibilities :?:

For the record, I have not ridden with road trains, but generally do find the drivers of large semis to be the most responsible and courteous drivers on the open highways, and often in urban areas as well.


I find this a strange argument, on other threads some of us get accused of blindly following the law, were as here when I suggest being flexible it appears the argument is the opposite.
It must be done because it's the law. :shock:

I believe it irresponsible to be riding for pleasure or fitness on a highway and knowingly hold up transport drivers who are working at supplying essential supplies to our country areas.

I don't have to deal with the triples but we do get the double road trains around here all the time and I find on the whole the are very good and give me plenty of room.

Occasionally I've had them coming form behind and in front at the same time and If I pick it quick enough I get off my bike and get as far as possible off the road, their job is a pretty stressful one and those very large heavy vehicles aren't the easiest things in the world to control.

The result of me getting of the road has in most case been at least one truck driver giving me a grateful wave. Worth the whole minute or 2 the stop has cost me. :D

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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:06 pm

martinjs wrote:
il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:On the highway at least I think we as cyclist should be flexibly, after all is it fair to ask a road train weighing up to 200 tonnes to slow down to 50k's and hour or less and wait behind us until the road clears?

Yes.

Because it's the law.

If they can't deal with this, by one strategy or another, then maybe they should not be on the roads. Unless you're proposing some unique new change to legal responsibilities :?:

For the record, I have not ridden with road trains, but generally do find the drivers of large semis to be the most responsible and courteous drivers on the open highways, and often in urban areas as well.


I find this a strange argument, on other threads some of us get accused of blindly following the law, were as here when I suggest being flexible it appears the argument is the opposite.
It must be done because it's the law. :shock:

You are misinterpreting my point. I am not suggesting to ride wide to force trucks to slow down, nor to hold your line at all costs. Yes, of course, ride in a courteous and ultimately flexible manner. But when it comes to any conflict it is quite clear where the obligation lies. To suggest that it is not fair to expect a road train to slow and overtake safely is ignoring their legal obligation. Seems an odd approach to take.

Like I said, I'm always prepared to be courteous, but not to the extent that it endangers me when riding (a dive for the gravel verge is fraught with danger). And I have always found truckies to be very skilled in anticipating a predictable cyclist in a very courteous manner.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby stanevelyn » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:32 pm

This is a great discussion!! The point to make here is that riding in the NT often means sharing one road, as there is often no alternative. In a lot of cases there just aren't other roads to use except just the one highway.

Most truckies are courteous, and drive responsibly, however when it comes to driving a road train irresponsibly, their actions could be life threataning and devastating.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby The Womble » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:47 pm

I like Bacon and Eggs
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Re: Why So Close

Postby hannos » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:59 pm

The Womble wrote:I like Bacon and Eggs


Bacon and tomato with some buttered toast for me. Don't like eggs.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby martinjs » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:38 pm

I never risk my life by diving off in to the gavel either, simple read the situation and stop riding for a minute or to and walk my bike of the road. We have some very narrow roads out here, barely wide enough for 2 semi's to pass each other so not wide enough for 2 semis and a bike.

As it's an open country road they often approach at 100kph from each direction and if possible they do give me a wide berth, I just feel it's a responsible thing to do to help them navigate quickly and easily so they and I can get home at the end of the day not only in one piece, but in a good state of mind.

Although I work in retail I am aware of the !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! people put me through with both sales and the computers I repair so I try and think of the road as my leisure place were I can relax and enjoy the ride but also remember their still at work and may have been at it for most of their work day.

You wouldn't believe how much wireless Ethernet stuff and modems that come back through my work place were the dozy customers tell me they want their money back because it's not working.
99% of the time they test ok and it really gets my goat so I try and let others get on with their work with out having to get stress out. :D 8)

I don't care if I have right of way or the right to claim the road, by getting off and letting them pass where possible I go home happy and so do they. 8)

Having said all of that I do hold my place on the road when I'm riding where I have no where to go and have had no trouble from the truckies under those circumstance's.

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Re: Why So Close

Postby The Womble » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:14 pm

Max wrote:
il padrone wrote:.. generally do find the drivers of large semis to be the most responsible and courteous drivers on the open highways, and often in urban areas as well.


I find this to be the case too. I work in an industrial area. Every other vehicle is a large truck driven by a professional truck driver. Those guys give me heaps of room, and if I'm stuck climbing a hill on a narrow road, they wait behind me. A big thumbs up to the truck drivers around Archerfield.

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Re: Why So Close

Postby number21 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:31 pm

Missy24 wrote:
2. i ride road - i'm confident in my skills, but I have no idea whats behind me, as long as I don't get hit it really doesn't bother me




I don't mean to jinx you or anything but I said almost exactly the same thing to a mate on our way to hockey training one Wednesday night. About 14hours later commuting to work at around 11:30am on a perfect early March day I'm down on the drops really charging through Sydneys airport tunnel (the most dangerous part of my trip) when I hear screeching brakes then find myself thrown over the handlebars onto the lane.

This is a road with no shoulder for bikes and I always travelled through there about a metre from the left gutter so I wasn't swerving to avoid drains etc. Its 4 lanes with a 70kph limit. Luckily for me I fell into the same lane and that the driver did eventually stop. An older guy with coke bottle glasses driving a kingswood stationwagon with a cracked windscreen failed to see me.

I don't go that way anymore, I take an alternative less macho backstreet way now. Whats to prove if your not around to point it out?
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Re: Why So Close

Postby scotto » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:26 am

stanevelyn wrote:Recently I was almost run off the road by a Bus. I am a roadie and generally do not use shared pathways as the speed difference between me and pedestrians is too great to be safe....
I have also had road trains (3 trailers) pass me with little more than 12" gap at highway speed, however they are too fast to glimpse their identity. I know that we all have had issues with trucks and buses however the lack of awareness and consideration of the road rules by so called professional drivers and their employers is an area of great concern. Whats the general consensus out there?


If youre riding with road trains, maybe some sort of psych evaluation is in order.

people bandy about comments like
'they forget bikes have the same rights
and
its the law"
but the cold hard reality is different. To the average motorist, roads are for motor vehicles, or anyone who can keep up with the flow of traffic. nothing pisses me off more then being stuck behind a cyclist riding in the middle of the lane, doing 30km/h on a long single road. sure its his right to do so, but its not very considerate. Your rights and the law dont help you much when youre dead. being in the right doesnt always mean youre correct

its a bit like on the harbour in my boat. at least there, the rules are much more sensible. Big vessels like ferries and larger ships have right of way over everything due to their size. they are less maneuverable, slower to stop, and their visability is obscured somewhat due to their size. cross their path at your own peril. sound like a familiar scenario ?
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Re: Why So Close

Postby sogood » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:34 am

Missy24 wrote:2. i ride road - i'm confident in my skills, but I have no idea whats behind me, as long as I don't get hit it really doesn't bother me

Situational awareness is a critical aspect of road safety. I would suggest that it's important to keep an eye and ear on what's coming up behind.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby jet-ski » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:37 pm

Scotto - you really want the law of adverse tonnages on the road? Cos everyone will then be driving a Landcruiser/Patrol or bigger in order to get right of way. Doesn't really make sense in a different context.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:30 pm

scotto wrote:people bandy about comments like
'they forget bikes have the same rights
and
its the law"
but the cold hard reality is different. To the average motorist, roads are for motor vehicles, or anyone who can keep up with the flow of traffic. nothing pisses me off more then being stuck behind a cyclist riding in the middle of the lane, doing 30km/h on a long single road. sure its his right to do so, but its not very considerate. Your rights and the law dont help you much when youre dead. being in the right doesnt always mean youre correct

I don't encounter this sort of problem on my suburban commute, nor riding a range of other road scenarios generally. Sure, there is the odd total tool about, but most drivers are quite decent about overtaking safely, as long as you ride defensively, claiming the reasonable space you require.

scotto wrote:its a bit like on the harbour in my boat. at least there, the rules are much more sensible. Big vessels like ferries and larger ships have right of way over everything due to their size. they are less maneuverable, slower to stop, and their visability is obscured somewhat due to their size. cross their path at your own peril. sound like a familiar scenario ?

Lots more room for manouvering on the water, even on Sydney Harbour. On the road size does not enter into it.

Restating, I have personally found the larger truck drivers to be the most courteous and responsible on the road. I have a theory that the value of the truck load has some link to the intellect of the driver however. Certain types of trucks (especially in the urban setting) are a bit more agressive eg, quarry trucks, garbage/recycling compactors, builder's/plumber's trucks. Be aware of this and ready for any close moves.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby elantra » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:18 pm

stanevelyn wrote:This is a great discussion!! The point to make here is that riding in the NT often means sharing one road, as there is often no alternative. In a lot of cases there just aren't other roads to use except just the one highway.

Most truckies are courteous, and drive responsibly, however when it comes to driving a road train irresponsibly, their actions could be life threataning and devastating.


I think it is obvious that all sorts of people drive trucks.
Some of them don't care about the welfare of others on the road.
Some of them are affected by stimulant drugs like amphetamines etcetera, which make people irrational and aggro.
Some are tired and some are all of the above.

Years ago i lived in a country town on a quiet section of the Bruce Highway between Townsville and Cairns.
A group of us would ride on the highway, usually early in the morning.
Local truckies often knew us and were very friendly, but some of the interstaters would pass us deliberately close - very bad indeed.
Quite bizzare how they would do this even when we were single file.
We rarely if ever caused them any significant obstruction, unlike the grey nomad caravans that would hold them up on the roads in the cooler months.

These days i try to keep off highways, but obviously that is not an option where you live.
I think you should also consider a rear-view mirror, and try to ride in a (sensible) group.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:31 pm

elantra wrote:Local truckies often knew us and were very friendly, but some of the interstaters would pass us deliberately close - very bad indeed.
Quite bizzare how they would do this even when we were single file.

Single file is the problem here. Too predictable, an invitation to the professional driver to cut close. Two-abreast would be much safer in this scenario, even though it sounds irresponsible and may get you a blast from the horn...... but they'll overtake wider :idea: .

Last April/May I rode from Geelong to Adelaide with a mate, mostly on the Great Ocean Road then the Princes/Dukes Hwys. We had lots of trucks passing us on some days. We usually rode single file, just to the right of the road edge white line, or on the sealed shoulder if it was not too rough and crappy. Where traffic was reasonably light and we heard a truck approaching, one of us would do a bit of a wander out on the road, just 30-50cms. When the truck was still 100-200m back. This persuaded them that we are a bit less predictable than a four-wheeled vehicle and they would overtake wider, usually crossing the centre-line. Never got any flack or horn blasting.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Boognoss » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:57 pm

Varying degrees of inconsiderate driving through to illegal overtaking. A "worst-of" collection from my commuting. Always a Hillsbus. Maybe that should be their slogan. :roll:




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Re: Why So Close

Postby jet-ski » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:23 pm

geez, have you tried reporting the Hills Bus drivers for their dangerous and inconsiderate conduct? reporting Transperth bus drivers here (with and without your own video evidence as all the buses have CCTV) has had good results for cyclists on the west side :)
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Boognoss » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:57 pm

jet-ski wrote:geez, have you tried reporting the Hills Bus drivers for their dangerous and inconsiderate conduct? reporting Transperth bus drivers here (with and without your own video evidence as all the buses have CCTV) has had good results for cyclists on the west side :)


Multiple times to Hillsbus with a standard "the driver has been counselled and reminded of the road rules" response. Once recently to Crimestoppers for the overtake across double lines on a light traffic road incident. No response from that at all (less than a fortnight ago).
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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:03 pm

That first one should be reported straight to the police! You can make out bus rego number, and if you have the time and date the driver can be traced. Blatant law-breaking (overtaking across double lines). No excuse at all. This 'bus driver' doesn't deserve a licence to operate a fishing rod, much less a bus carrying public passengers. He's a hazard on the road.

Drivers crossing dpouble lines when overtaking cyclists is one of the driver infractions that I find most infuriating, and potentially life-threatening. I've had them do it on crests, bends and blind corners with oncoming traffic :x
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Boognoss » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:14 pm

The first one was the Crimestoppers one Il Padrone. I didn't bother with the bus co. that time.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:24 pm

I don't know much about Crimestoppers. But if an incident has occured it is your right to take evidence to a police station and make a formal statement, requesting action be taken to investigate illegal acts.

I think this is another step higher in seriousness, and even if it doesn't lead to charges, the bus company and driver will be required to explain their actions (or lack of). It's your choice but you can push it somewhat. It is necessary to get a change of culture amongst this company's drivers apparently.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Boognoss » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:54 pm

il padrone wrote:I don't know much about Crimestoppers. But if an incident has occured it is your right to take evidence to a police station and make a formal statement, requesting action be taken to investigate illegal acts.

I think this is another step higher in seriousness, and even if it doesn't lead to charges, the bus company and driver will be required to explain their actions (or lack of). It's your choice but you can push it somewhat. It is necessary to get a change of culture amongst this company's drivers apparently.


Good point. One aspect that is a barrier for me at least is the time and effort required to front up to the police station in the L.A.C. in question (Eastwood) which is 30 mins drive from home. You're right though that this probably is the only way to effect change. Pity the law isn't as internet-enabled as the rest of the universe (and I was hoping that Crimestoppers would act as the "Police Online" as such).
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