Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

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Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:10 am

Hi

THanks to Gusk at Adelaide Cyclist for this video

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dE86UIWPcY&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

BTW if I remember correctly, at least in WA, passing on the left, a left turning vehicle as shown at 2:39 is illegal :wink:

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Last edited by Aushiker on Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby simonn » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:32 am

Aushiker wrote:BTW if I remember correctly, at least in WA, passing on the left a left turning vehicle as shown at 2:39 is illegal :wink:

:roll: (AT) RAA

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby JKohn » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:40 am

I'm in SA and have never heard of that rule. If there is a red light you area allowed to ride up to the line, then cars turning left give way to you if you are going straight.

Of course if they get a left turn arrow then you move far enough left to the kerb to enable them to get around without holding them up.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby russellgarrard » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:41 am

I think this video has done more harm than good!

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby jules21 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:52 am

Aushiker wrote:BTW if I remember correctly, at least in WA, passing on the left, a left turning vehicle as shown at 2:39 is illegal :wink:

only if they're in the act of turning, according to BV. sitting at the lights doesn't qualify, i don't believe.

that was not a bad video - i thought it was pretty balanced and the advice fair.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby simonn » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:12 pm

JKohn wrote:I'm in SA and have never heard of that rule.


Best learn your road rules then...

http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/R ... 219.UN.PDF

141—No overtaking etc to the left of a vehicle
(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the
vehicle unless:

...

(2) The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is
turning left and is giving a left change of direction signal.
Offence provision.
Note—
Left change of direction signal is defined in the dictionary.

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:20 pm

JKohn wrote:I'm in SA and have never heard of that rule. If there is a red light you area allowed to ride up to the line, then cars turning left give way to you if you are going straight..


Hi

From the Western Australian Road Code 2000 as amended November 14, 2009, Section 122(4)

The rider of a bicycle shall not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is making, or apparently about to make, a left turn, or is signalling a left turn


You might want to check the SA Road Code as the State codes are now pretty much based on the National Road Code.

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:22 pm

Hi

Whoops .. Simonn had already answered the point .. :oops:

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby jet-ski » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:33 pm

I don't think it matters whether it's legal or not it's DANGEROUS!! :P
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:50 pm

jet-ski wrote:I don't think it matters whether it's legal or not it's DANGEROUS!! :P

+1

99% of the time I will overtake stationary traffic queues on the right side, one lane out. No concerns about left-turners and usually there is more space as drivers tend to keep further away from other cars than they do from the kerb. Also there's less chance of door swingers, no [email protected] broken concrete, drain grills or broken glass. All good.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:53 pm

jules21 wrote:
Aushiker wrote:BTW if I remember correctly, at least in WA, passing on the left, a left turning vehicle as shown at 2:39 is illegal :wink:

only if they're in the act of turning, according to BV. sitting at the lights doesn't qualify, i don't believe.

that was not a bad video - i thought it was pretty balanced and the advice fair.


Thanks Jules, I've always slotted in behind the first lefty after filtering through the straights.

@00:45ish "Sometimes cyclists are just difficult to see."

Newsflash mate. ANYTHING is difficult to see if you're not looking. Your example was as blatantly stupid and irresponsible as the rider blasting the red.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:10 pm

....99% of the time I will overtake stationary traffic queues on the right side, one lane out.

Me too - I also do the same when approaching dual lane roundabouts - you oughta see my sprint off the line. :shock:

Andrew, in the video technically the rider is not overtaking the stopped car - notice the rider is stopped alongside the car and indeed looks around to make eye contact with the car driver.
It is fine to remain stopped while the car turns left.

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:23 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:
....99% of the time I will overtake stationary traffic queues on the right side, one lane out.

Me too - I also do the same when approaching dual lane roundabouts

Nup. Roundabouts = claim the lane. One lane or multi-lane

The only car that goes past me will be one lane out and by legal definition, going straight through or right.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:00 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
jules21 wrote:
Aushiker wrote:BTW if I remember correctly, at least in WA, passing on the left, a left turning vehicle as shown at 2:39 is illegal :wink:

only if they're in the act of turning, according to BV. sitting at the lights doesn't qualify, i don't believe.

that was not a bad video - i thought it was pretty balanced and the advice fair.


Thanks Jules, I've always slotted in behind the first lefty after filtering through the straights.



Hi

Bicycle Victoria and/or Jules are wrong as I read it ... Section 141 (2) of the Victorian Road Safety Road Rules 2009 S.R. No. 94/2009 Version incorporating amendments as at 26 October 2010 clearly states in plain English ...

The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left change of direction signal.


There is further specifics relevant to Victoria and its trams but the section above still stands and there is no mention variance for lights that I could find. Happy to stand corrected but if you can point to the relevant section(s).

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:11 pm

Aushiker wrote:Bicycle Victoria and/or Jules are wrong as I read it ... Section 141 (2) of the Victorian Road Safety Road Rules 2009 S.R. No. 94/2009 Version incorporating amendments as at 26 October 2010 clearly states in plain English ...

The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left change of direction signal.


There is further specifics relevant to Victoria and its trams but the section above still stands and there is no mention of lights.

No, a common misconception on this rule. The action is illegal if the car is indicating left and actually turning. If the lights are red of course they're not turning. If you move through (to the front, subject to room) this will be legally OK. Recommend that you never sit alongside a car at the lights, left-indicating or otherwise.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:39 pm

il padrone wrote:No, a common misconception on this rule. The action is illegal if the car is indicating left and actually turning. If the lights are red of course they're not turning. If you move through (to the front, subject to room) this will be legally OK. Recommend that you never sit alongside a car at the lights, left-indicating or otherwise.


Hi

I am interested in knowing of any case law that supports your interpretation ( I haven't been able to find any); it seems on the face of it a narrow interpretation of "to the left of a vehicle that is turning left" and without case law to the contrary I wouldn't be testing that interpretation and hence I will stick with my understanding of the regulation.

Queensland Transport and Main Roads seems to agree with my understanding when it says:

Bicycles can overtake to the left of a vehicle unless:
the vehicle is signalling to turn left
it is unsafe to do so.


Bicycle Victoria as previously alluded seems to interpret it differently and it seems to depend on the number of vehicles and if the first vehicle is moving... I would be interested in the legal advice that come up with this interpretation.

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:56 pm

I agree with Pete having dug one paragraph out of 500 pages :o No wonder nobody knows the rules.

It all hinges on the word "and". the rule would be read completely differently thus

(2) The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or
overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is turning left
OR is giving a left change of direction signal.

Semantics? maybe. But I'm sure BV would have had their legal peoples toothcomb it before publishing?

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby jules21 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:03 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Semantics? maybe.

it's not semantics Shaun, the wording of legal provisions is always read literally. sometimes it's not what they intended it to mean, but that's academic - it is what it says.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:09 pm

No contest then, I overtake on the left until I get to the front. OR the traffic starts moving whereby I get back into the line.

Thanks Jules :D
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:21 pm

jules21 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Semantics? maybe.

it's not semantics Shaun, the wording of legal provisions is always read literally. sometimes it's not what they intended it to mean, but that's academic - it is what it says.


Hi

From the High Court of Australia ...

The High Court is the highest court in the Australian judicial system. It was established in 1901 by Section 71 of the Constitution. The functions of the High Court are to interpret and apply the law of Australia; to decide cases of special federal significance including challenges to the constitutional validity of laws and to hear appeals, by special leave, from Federal, State and Territory courts.

The seat of the High Court is in Canberra, where it is located in its own building within the Parliamentary Triangle. The High Court building houses three courtrooms, Justices' chambers, and the Court's main registry, library, and corporate services facilities. In addition, there are offices of the High Court Registry in Sydney and Melbourne, staffed by officers of the High Court. In Adelaide, Brisbane, Darwin and Perth, registry functions are performed on behalf of the High Court by officers of the Federal Court of Australia, and in Hobart they are performed by officers of the Supreme Court of Tasmania.


Key word in this context: interpret

Then there is the question of Common Law and the its role ...

Then there is the role of the State's Supreme Courts ....

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:50 pm

Waaaay more time :roll:
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby russellgarrard » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:33 am

il padrone wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Bicycle Victoria and/or Jules are wrong as I read it ... Section 141 (2) of the Victorian Road Safety Road Rules 2009 S.R. No. 94/2009 Version incorporating amendments as at 26 October 2010 clearly states in plain English ...

The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left change of direction signal.


There is further specifics relevant to Victoria and its trams but the section above still stands and there is no mention of lights.

No, a common misconception on this rule. The action is illegal if the car is indicating left and actually turning. If the lights are red of course they're not turning. If you move through (to the front, subject to room) this will be legally OK. Recommend that you never sit alongside a car at the lights, left-indicating or otherwise.


Sorry, I actually got something wrong for once!

My apologies! I mis-read Torum...whoopsie!
Last edited by russellgarrard on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby il padrone » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:49 am

Aushiker wrote:From the High Court of Australia ...

The High Court is the highest court in the Australian judicial system. It was established in 1901 by Section 71 of the Constitution. The functions of the High Court are to interpret and apply the law of Australia; to decide cases of special federal significance including challenges to the constitutional validity of laws and to hear appeals, by special leave, from Federal, State and Territory courts.

The seat of the High Court is in Canberra, where it is located in its own building within the Parliamentary Triangle. The High Court building houses three courtrooms, Justices' chambers, and the Court's main registry, library, and corporate services facilities. In addition, there are offices of the High Court Registry in Sydney and Melbourne, staffed by officers of the High Court. In Adelaide, Brisbane, Darwin and Perth, registry functions are performed on behalf of the High Court by officers of the Federal Court of Australia, and in Hobart they are performed by officers of the Supreme Court of Tasmania.


Key word in this context: interpret

Then there is the question of Common Law and the its role ...

Then there is the role of the State's Supreme Courts ....


Case law..... common law :? .... High Court judgements :shock: ......

I would love to see a left side overtake TIN get to the High Court :lol: :lol: :lol:

It could happen of course, but some people would have to be seriously principled and have way too much coin to spare.
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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby Aushiker » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:58 am

il padrone wrote:
Aushiker wrote:From the High Court of Australia ...

The High Court is the highest court in the Australian judicial system. It was established in 1901 by Section 71 of the Constitution. The functions of the High Court are to interpret and apply the law of Australia; to decide cases of special federal significance including challenges to the constitutional validity of laws and to hear appeals, by special leave, from Federal, State and Territory courts.

The seat of the High Court is in Canberra, where it is located in its own building within the Parliamentary Triangle. The High Court building houses three courtrooms, Justices' chambers, and the Court's main registry, library, and corporate services facilities. In addition, there are offices of the High Court Registry in Sydney and Melbourne, staffed by officers of the High Court. In Adelaide, Brisbane, Darwin and Perth, registry functions are performed on behalf of the High Court by officers of the Federal Court of Australia, and in Hobart they are performed by officers of the Supreme Court of Tasmania.


Key word in this context: interpret

Then there is the question of Common Law and the its role ...

Then there is the role of the State's Supreme Courts ....


Case law..... common law :? .... High Court judgements :shock: ......

I would love to see a left side overtake TIN get to the High Court :lol: :lol: :lol: .


The posting wasn't specific to this particular law .. it was in response to the statement about the law which BTW I quoted to give my comment context. I would have thought that with your powers of interpretation that would have been clear :)

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Re: Petrol and Pedal – a cycling and cars video from RAA SA

Postby il padrone » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:08 am

Fair enough, I misread your reply.

By the way, you missed the full text of the QLD Bicycle Rules website (not the actual text of the rule either)

Qld Bicycle Rules wrote:Keeping left and overtaking (s129, s131, s141, s151)

You must:

•ride as near as is safely possible to the far left side of the road — on a multi-lane road or a road with two or more lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as you, you can occupy a lane and travel in the right hand lane when necessary (for example, to make a right turn)
•ride to the left of any oncoming vehicle
•not overtake another vehicle on the left if that vehicle is turning left and giving a left change of direction signal
•not ride more than two abreast unless overtaking
•ride within 1.5 m of the other rider if riding two abreast.
Bicycles can overtake to the left of a vehicle unless:

•the vehicle is signalling to turn left
•it is unsafe to do so.

Like I said, the vehicle must be in the action of turning left. I'd expect at least have turned its wheels left and be at the corner, with a green light - I use that as a good indication. A stopped vehicle in the traffic queue, with its left indicator on, or stationary at a red light can be legally passed on the left. They're not turning.

Qld Bicycle Rules wrote:A cyclist must give way to a vehicle that is signalling to turn left and driving in front of the cyclist.

I'd love to see a legal interpretation of this one. Seems to legalise the good ol' left hook :?: Overtake the cyclist, get in front then slam it around him :(
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