Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:29 pm**

Hi

Cycle Gaz who runs The Views of a Cyclist from Croydon was yesterday hit by a car as he cycled on the bus lane. Here is the YouTube of the accident:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqCwjC2V ... r_embedded[/youtube]

Fortunately he has escaped without serious injuries. As Gaz said in his comments on YouTube on a good day he may have seen this coming. The video acts as a good reminder to be as careful as possible especially in the wintery conditions. In this situation there is little Gaz could have done differently.

- London Cyclist

Andrew

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:05 pm**

Can be a little difficult those situations, as its not uncommon in a bus lane to have a tailgating taxi driver who doesn't understand why you want to slow down to pass the corner of the stationary bus/tall vehicle that is in a different lane.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:41 pm**

London Cyclist wrote:In this situation there is little Gaz could have done differently.

Ouch!!

In this sort of situation (bike/bus lane and or passing stopped traffic queues) I have learned to look out for any gaps left in the line of vehicles and slow down - just the place where a right-turner might be let in.

A mate of mine got caught like this a few years ago and the bike was trash, he was in hospital with moderate injuries. Later the 4WD owner tried to deny responsibility and accuse him of failing to give way

. They lost a lot more than the cost of his bike though when they took it to the court steps.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:08 pm**

Saw that coming...he should of to.
He may not be at fault but he is the one who may have been hurt.
Is this the UK?...very common for cars to flash thru others cars turning across lanes in heavy traffic.I was caught out like this in my early 20's in London.Truck flashed a car while he was over taking me...I wrote the car off.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:15 pm**

My brother had some superman action on (well, actually, off) his motorbike in London for the same thing.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:52 am**

In this situation there is little Gaz could have done differently.

Dark, wet, intersection coming up and traffic is stopped leaving a gap for traffic to pull out from the left or turn across from the right.
In this situation I would be slowing way down especially for the reason that the white van is obscuring my view and that of drivers turning across - noteworthy is that the motorist was already turning across (slowly and carefully) well before the cyclist appeared from out of nowhere leaving around ONE SECOND reaction time for both parties.
If that was my car I would be pushing for reparations and insisting that the cyclist be charged with careless riding.
Cycle Gaz, you failed. I hope that you are soon ok and wiser in future.

Eric.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:04 am**

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:
In this situation there is little Gaz could have done differently.
Dark, wet, intersection coming up and traffic is stopped leaving a gap for traffic to pull out from the left or turn across from the right.
In this situation I would be slowing way down especially for the reason that the white van is obscuring my view and that of drivers turning across - noteworthy is that the motorist was already turning across (slowly and carefully) well before the cyclist appeared from out of nowhere leaving around ONE SECOND reaction time for both parties.
If that was my car I would be pushing for reparations and insisting that the cyclist be charged with careless riding.
Cycle Gaz, you failed. I hope that you are soon ok and wiser in future..

mmm assuming the law is the same in the UK as here .. I would have expected you to be charged as the driver of the car and therefore you would be liable ... is it not a failure to give way? Right or wrong the cyclist had the right of way ... it is a bus lane that he was riding in (I am assuming that is legal to ride in bus lanes) and hence legitimately moving forward, no? Or are you saying it is okay to just turn right across a cyclist now?

Had the driver hit a bus in that lane (happens apparently if you believe the comments to the video) would you still expect to claim damages?

Andrew

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:47 am**

Watch the two seconds of the video before the crash 20 times, frame by frame is best.
The motorist is turning across with appropriate speed and caution in anticipation of a possible vehicle travelling down the bus lane at speed commensurate with the conditions.
I venture that a bus would approach the intersection at much slower speed and additionally would be far more visible by virtue of much brighter lights at each side of the bus allowing rather longer visibility time.
The cyclist light would be relatively feeble compared to a bus headlamp and trigonometry shows that a bus headlamp near to the kerb would be visible for a whole second longer than a bicycle lamp near to the right side of the bus lane and shielded by the white van.
The time from first visibility of the cyclist or car to impact is around ONE SECOND - if the car turned across at half the speed shown in the video the drivers reaction time would be TWO SECONDS AT MOST.
The cyclist was legitimately ? travelling in the bus lane, however the cyclist was riding quite (quite : To the utmost or most absolute extent or degree; absolutely ) recklessly for the conditions present.
I reckon the cyclist was travelling at between 30 and 40 km/h 2 seconds before the crash - much faster than a bus would approach that intersection.
I think the cyclist has a hide to proclaim that he was hit by a car - the video reveals that he t-boned the front fender of the car.

Eric.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:53 am**

Yeah I don't think the motorist was at fault either. Although it is a little difficult to see from the perceptive of the rider, not sure how visible his lights were.

It was dark, wet (icy?) and he was riding on the inside lane and behind a lorry as he went through that intersection. The driver probably thought it was perfectly safe to turn and then half way in saw a guy flying out of nowhere and onto the bonnet. It's just one of those things. The car looked like it was going pretty slow anyway so it would have been a pretty mild stack.

I guess Gaz could have been a bit more cautious and slowed down more coming up to that intersection, but the reality was it was a honest accident caused by poor weather conditions and visibility.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:31 am**

elStado wrote:Yeah I don't think the motorist was at fault either.

I am missing something here I think ... so are you saying I can drive a car and turn right across in front of a cyclist who by all accounts is traveling in a forward direction legally, hit the cyclist I am not fault ... Is that right?

Andrew

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:48 am**

The motorist failed to give way. The car is clearly in the wrong.

If you can't see the space and the intersecting flow of taffic then you shouldn't be moving into that space. In practice occasionally this is an impossible requirement, in which case I would be moving slower than walking pace.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:53 am**

Obviously it's easier to say "I could/would have done this...".
Just good that the guy isn't too badly banged up.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:58 am**

I'm also assuming that it is legal for a bike to ride in the bus lane.

If this had been a bus (a non-two story bus, and yes they do have them in the UK), who the turning driver would not have been able to see due to the white large van which has allowed the turning vechile to turn, and the same would have resulted, except it would have been a collusion with the a car/bus, instead of the a car/bike.

The turning car is at fault.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:04 am**

.....a cyclist who by all accounts is traveling in a forward direction legally.....

As far as I know it is legal to drive at speeds appropriate to the conditions - driving faster than the conditions dictate is illegal.
The cyclist was recklessly endangering other road users (and himself).

Eric.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:08 am**

Technically, yes, of course the car is ay fault.

Realistically, the rider could have avoided that prang if he was riding a little more cautiously.

That's just my view I'm the situation. Weather and traffic would have been a big factor.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:09 am**

The car is at fault...it is up to him /her to check all lanes before crossing even if someone flashes you thru.
Cyclist should have seen it coming and slowed to a stop...doesn't mean he is at fault thou.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:03 am**

toolonglegs wrote:The car is at fault...it is up to him /her to check all lanes before crossing even if someone flashes you thru.
Cyclist should have seen it coming and slowed to a stop...doesn't mean he is at fault thou.

Estimated length of white van - 7m
Time to travel length of van - 0.9 sec
Calculated speed - 26.5 km/h
Path of bicycle was moving further away from kerb and closer to van whilst alongside van to avoid dark car already protruding into the bus lane.
To the car driver the bus lane appeared clear until the cyclist appeared at the last partial second - the driver did manage to slow slightly just before impact.
The cyclist is wholly responsible due to travelling far too fast for the conditions, not slowing and verifying that an intersection is safe to cross, and positioning himself alongside the stationary van and out of view of other road users.
Imagine the trauma to the occupants of the car if the cyclist had gone through the passenger side window and injured or maimed those within.
I have viewed this blokes blog and videos where he points out errors and mistakes made by motorists and other cyclists however in this case is unable to see the error of his own actions.
This rider is a prize tool and it irks me that forum members spring to this idiots defence in this case.
In my time as a motorist and cyclist I have long since learned to never leave anything to chance and I ride and drive accordingly - that is I drive and ride defensively.
Remember the thread where a forum member blamed a motorist for his action of spearing off a bikeway and into traffic, and then riding dangerously further down the street.
Cyclists who are bad ambassadors for the overall cycling community thoroughly deserve to be lambasted for their lack of foresight.
Rant over.

Eric.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:55 am**

The rider showed zero defensive driving (riding) skills and while no-one deserves to be hit by a car, this guy was tempting fate when he raced into the intersection from behind that van. He didn't see a car coming so how can he reasonably assume a car would have seen him? The car driver for sure didn't expect a bus to be coming, there was a car blocking the lane, and he obviously didn't expect someone on a bike to come hurtling out from behind that van.
Who knows what the road regulations are over in the UK but in every State and Territory in Oz it is a common law standard that EVERY road user do what they can to avoid a collision and the bike rider would be apportioned his fair share of the blame (for his recklessness) if this ever ended up in a court.
In the blog is the comment

The video acts as a good reminder to be as careful as possible especially in the wintery conditions.

Shame Gaz wasn't thinking this when he was riding that night.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:35 am**

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:The cyclist is wholly responsible...

No he is not. End of story. In the UK (my first driving license was British) if ever you are crossing the flow of traffic you have responsibility end of story, full stop, period, whatever.

As I previously mentioned my brother had the same thing on his motor bike. The car driver tried to claim what you are stating as his defense. The police (and the motorbike paramedic witness who happened to be following my brother and called the police) told him to !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! and learn the road rules (like I would tell you if I was not a gentleman).

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:43 am**

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:The cyclist is wholly responsible due to travelling far too fast for the conditions, not slowing and verifying that an intersection is safe to cross, and positioning himself alongside the stationary van and out of view of other road users.

The car driver is moving across traffic, not slowing and verifying that an intersection is safe to cross, and positioning himself alongside the stationary van and out of view of other road users.

Despite what you are talking about as good practice for a cyclist (that I wholly agree with) the law is very clear in this sort of scenario and it is most likley the outcome would be a fine and damages against the driver of the car.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:17 am**

Oxford wrote:estimates of speed 30-40km/h cmon guys get real on what basis can you make that claim? lets keep the discussion based in reality and on the infrmation that is readily apparent and not make silly guesstimates.

Hi

Yeah, the cyclist in the comments section made this comment about his speed:

I'm normally more aware of this happening, but this one happened a littleï»¿ bit too quickly for me to read and react. I said to him he was lucky i was going slowly due to the road conditions and that i wasn't a bus

.

and he made this comment ...

It is indeed ironic. The problem for me in this case, was the car in front of the van just moved away from the junction and before i could put 2 and 2 together i was on the bonnet. On a better day i might have read it differently but we can't all be perfectï»¿ all of the time.

and this comment

hindsight is a wonderful thing, i've askedï»¿ my self many times already how i didn't see it. All you need is an itchy nose or a pothole in front of you and your looking at something else and this can easily escape you. I don't know what happened at the time, but for some reason i didn't see the gap appear.

His comments are there for those interested in the video comments section ...

Andrew

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:26 am**

In hindsight, there are often many ways that the accident could have been avoided. I don't think the cyclist was travelling all that quickly (it seemed pretty reasonable to me), but he should have been more aware and prepared for a car turning across at the intersection. Perhaps if he was riding further to the left of the lane, he may have opened up his field of vision a little more. The driver could have been looking more carefully and perhaps a little more cautious, however with a car, the bonnet has to stick out a bit before you can see around a corner blocked by a big van.

In the end, though, it's just something that happened. Both parties unfortunately had their direct view blocked by the van and ended up 'appearing' from behind the van at the same time. I don't think either party was really in the wrong, but in the eyes of the law, the vehicle turning across the traffic will be at fault.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:20 am**

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:The car is at fault...it is up to him /her to check all lanes before crossing even if someone flashes you thru.
Cyclist should have seen it coming and slowed to a stop...doesn't mean he is at fault thou.
Estimated length of white van - 7m
Time to travel length of van - 0.9 sec
Calculated speed - 26.5 km/h
Path of bicycle was moving further away from kerb and closer to van whilst alongside van to avoid dark car already protruding into the bus lane.
To the car driver the bus lane appeared clear until the cyclist appeared at the last partial second - the driver did manage to slow slightly just before impact.
The cyclist is wholly responsible due to travelling far too fast for the conditions, not slowing and verifying that an intersection is safe to cross, and positioning himself alongside the stationary van and out of view of other road users.
Imagine the trauma to the occupants of the car if the cyclist had gone through the passenger side window and injured or maimed those within.
I have viewed this blokes blog and videos where he points out errors and mistakes made by motorists and other cyclists however in this case is unable to see the error of his own actions.
This rider is a prize idiot and it irks me that forum members spring to this idiots defence in this case.
In my time as a motorist and cyclist I have long since learned to never leave anything to chance and I ride and drive accordingly - that is I drive and ride defensively.
Remember the thread where a forum member blamed a motorist for his action of spearing off a bikeway and into traffic, and then riding dangerously further down the street.
Cyclists who are bad ambassadors for the overall cycling community thoroughly deserve to be lambasted for their lack of foresight.
Rant over.

Eric.

The rider made a common mistake - riding into a place where he couldn't see cross traffic that should be yielding to him sufficiently far ahead, frequently made by about 90% of the driving and riding population.

The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:43 am**

zero wrote:The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.

Hi

Yep and the part I highlighted is the critical point ... the driver had no legal or otherwise right to cross the bus lane and the driver failed to ensure it was safe to do so ... they failed one of the basic concepts in road rules, the concept of give way.

I suspect there are 100s of accidents if not 1,000s of accidents at traffic lights and intersections each year where this simple concept of give way is not applied.

The cyclist was not in the wrong, maybe not riding as defensively as they should have, but no way are they in the wrong. He had every right to expect to have safe passage in the bus lane.

Andrew

Posted: **Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:54 pm**

FWIW, I agree with Dave's sentiments.

Quinns Rocks Roadie is using the "Well she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt" defense for the driver.

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