Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby zero » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:20 am

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:The car is at fault...it is up to him /her to check all lanes before crossing even if someone flashes you thru.
Cyclist should have seen it coming and slowed to a stop...doesn't mean he is at fault thou.

Estimated length of white van - 7m
Time to travel length of van - 0.9 sec
Calculated speed - 26.5 km/h
Path of bicycle was moving further away from kerb and closer to van whilst alongside van to avoid dark car already protruding into the bus lane.
To the car driver the bus lane appeared clear until the cyclist appeared at the last partial second - the driver did manage to slow slightly just before impact.
The cyclist is wholly responsible due to travelling far too fast for the conditions, not slowing and verifying that an intersection is safe to cross, and positioning himself alongside the stationary van and out of view of other road users.
Imagine the trauma to the occupants of the car if the cyclist had gone through the passenger side window and injured or maimed those within.
I have viewed this blokes blog and videos where he points out errors and mistakes made by motorists and other cyclists however in this case is unable to see the error of his own actions.
This rider is a prize idiot and it irks me that forum members spring to this idiots defence in this case.
In my time as a motorist and cyclist I have long since learned to never leave anything to chance and I ride and drive accordingly - that is I drive and ride defensively.
Remember the thread where a forum member blamed a motorist for his action of spearing off a bikeway and into traffic, and then riding dangerously further down the street.
Cyclists who are bad ambassadors for the overall cycling community thoroughly deserve to be lambasted for their lack of foresight.
Rant over.

Eric.


The rider made a common mistake - riding into a place where he couldn't see cross traffic that should be yielding to him sufficiently far ahead, frequently made by about 90% of the driving and riding population.

The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby Aushiker » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:43 am

zero wrote:The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.


Hi

Yep and the part I highlighted is the critical point ... the driver had no legal or otherwise right to cross the bus lane and the driver failed to ensure it was safe to do so ... they failed one of the basic concepts in road rules, the concept of give way.

I suspect there are 100s of accidents if not 1,000s of accidents at traffic lights and intersections each year where this simple concept of give way is not applied.

The cyclist was not in the wrong, maybe not riding as defensively as they should have, but no way are they in the wrong. He had every right to expect to have safe passage in the bus lane.

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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby simonn » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:54 am

FWIW, I agree with Dave's sentiments.

Quinns Rocks Roadie is using the "Well she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt" defense for the driver.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby hannos » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:58 am

elStado wrote:Technically, yes, of course the car is ay fault.

Realistically, the rider could have avoided that prang if he was riding a little more cautiously.

That's just my view I'm the situation. Weather and traffic would have been a big factor.



As could the driver by NOT turning across oncoming traffic.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby Aushiker » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:01 pm

hannos wrote:
elStado wrote:Technically, yes, of course the car is ay fault.

Realistically, the rider could have avoided that prang if he was riding a little more cautiously.

That's just my view I'm the situation. Weather and traffic would have been a big factor.



As could the driver by NOT turning across oncoming traffic.


Apparently not ... only cyclists have to ride (drive) defensively :)

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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby jules21 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:07 pm

there's no doubt the motorist is at fault.

however, i always filter through stationary traffic much slower than he was riding there. he's courting trouble riding that fast - and particularly past a van that clearly obscured his view of potential (real) hazards. i don't mean to rub salt into his wounds, but he gets low marks for defensive riding.

hannos wrote:
elStado wrote:Technically, yes, of course the car is ay fault.

Realistically, the rider could have avoided that prang if he was riding a little more cautiously.

That's just my view I'm the situation. Weather and traffic would have been a big factor.

As could the driver by NOT turning across oncoming traffic.

that may be true, but you shouldn't rely on them to do the right thing.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby simonn » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:29 pm

jules21 wrote:i always filter through stationary traffic much slower than he was riding there.


That's cool, but... he was not filtering. He was in a lane to himself.

If it was a car, bus or any other form of motor vehicle with >= 4 wheels there would there be any argument from those who are saying the cyclist is at all in the wrong?
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby jules21 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:36 pm

the cyclist isn't in the 'wrong' and 'filtering' is the wrong term, but in my traffic code:

(stationary traffic in one or more lanes) = (risk of road users cutting across it and assuming all lanes are stationary)

i ride in melbourne CBD and it happens all the time.
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:43 pm

zero wrote:
The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.

Except then the motor cyclist would be at fault...not aloud to ride motor bike in bus lanes in the UK (unless its changed?).
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby zero » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:43 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
zero wrote:
The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.

Except then the motor cyclist would be at fault...not aloud to ride motor bike in bus lanes in the UK (unless its changed?).


The motorist would still have broken the law and been at fault as far as the accident was concerned. Fail to give way doesn't hinge on the validity of which lane the other vehicle is in - merely that it is present. I'd also imagine a motorcycle cop or paramedic on a motorcycle would be allowed to use those lanes, whether or not they were actively attending an incident, therefore there could be expectation of motorcycles without warning devices activated and the general expectation that its common for motorcycles to be moving in the far left area in stationary traffic regardless of lane markings.
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:54 pm

zero wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:
zero wrote:
The driver on the other hand broke the law, as the driver is required to give way to all traffic in that lane, and needed to aggressively identify traffic in that lane. It would have been appropriate for the driver to stop and look, in my opinion, as it could easily have been a motorcycle doing 60, and not a bicycle doing 25. This is a fairly serious disregard for the safety of others.

Except then the motor cyclist would be at fault...not aloud to ride motor bike in bus lanes in the UK (unless its changed?).


The motorist would still have broken the law and been at fault as far as the accident was concerned. Fail to give way doesn't hinge on the validity of which lane the other vehicle is in - merely that it is present. I'd also imagine a motorcycle cop or paramedic on a motorcycle would be allowed to use those lanes, whether or not they were actively attending an incident, therefore there could be expectation of motorcycles without warning devices activated and the general expectation that its common for motorcycles to be moving in the far left area in stationary traffic regardless of lane markings.


I am not 100% sure on that...I hit a car in similar / identical circumstance to the above video on a motorbike...I was at fault.We are talking UK here...not Aus.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby elStado » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:06 am

Aushiker wrote:Apparently not ... only cyclists have to ride (drive) defensively :)

Andrew


That's because we weigh ~80kg and have no protection as opposed to a vehicle weighing ~1500kg and the occupant covered in a protective metal shell. In an accident between a cyclist and motorist, even if the motorist is at full fault, who do you think will come out more worse for wear? That is why cyclists should ride defensively at all times and always expect a car or other danger (e.g. pedestrian with dog) to come out of no where.

If I was riding down that same street in those same conditions I would have been going a bit slower and I would have also slowed right down at that intersection assuming that a car might pull across and hadn't seen me come down the inside lane and behind the truck. It's all about being aware of your surroundings and avoiding dangerous situations like this chap got himself into,
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby zero » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:17 am

toolonglegs wrote:
I am not 100% sure on that...I hit a car in similar / identical circumstance to the above video on a motorbike...I was at fault.We are talking UK here...not Aus.


Even in the UK that driver has to give way to traffic in that lane, and would be guilty of breaking the traffic law of failing to give way when turning right. If your situation was identical that would be true - but some investigators can't get their heads around the fact that everyone can be in the wrong (and thats often a precondition required to produce an actual accident rather than a near miss). Other investigators default presume motorcyclists and cyclists to be in wrong by existing.
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby jules21 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:34 am

zero wrote:some investigators can't get their heads around the fact that everyone can be in the wrong

+ 1

the fact someone was doing something wrong is not evidence someone else was doing something right. if you're turning right, you must give way to oncoming traffic. if there's a lane you can't see properly, the law would reasonably be interpreted as requiring you to confirm it was empty before turning across it. hitting a vehicle illegally using that lane doesn't absolve you from that responsibility.
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby jindydiver » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:33 am

jules21 wrote:
zero wrote:some investigators can't get their heads around the fact that everyone can be in the wrong

hitting a vehicle illegally using that lane doesn't absolve you from that responsibility.


Spot on, and I would add that just because you might have the law behind you doesn't magically save you from debilitating injury. Holding the high moral ground wont feel so great from your intensive care bed :wink:
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby simonn » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:43 am

toolonglegs wrote:Except then the motor cyclist would be at fault...not aloud to ride motor bike in bus lanes in the UK (unless its changed?).


You definitely allowed to ride a motorbike in the bus lanes in London, so I would assume the same for the rest of the UK.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:03 pm

elStado wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Apparently not ... only cyclists have to ride (drive) defensively :)

Andrew


That's because we weigh ~80kg and have no protection as opposed to a vehicle weighing ~1500kg and the occupant covered in a protective metal shell. In an accident between a cyclist and motorist, even if the motorist is at full fault, who do you think will come out more worse for wear? That is why cyclists should ride defensively at all times and always expect a car or other danger (e.g. pedestrian with dog) to come out of no where.

It sounds a lot like you're saying that motorists shouldn't have to drive defensively, because they're less likely to be injured in a collision? If that is what you're trying to say, that's stupid. If a motorist is piloting a ~1500kg vehicle capable of causing massive damage to both people and property, they should be held to much greater levels of scrutiny that someone (like a cyclist) who is not capable of causing such damage. (Or, if that wasn't what you were trying to say, you should probably re-read Aushiker's post! :wink:)
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby jules21 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:09 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:It sounds a lot like you're saying that motorists shouldn't have to drive defensively, because they're less likely to be injured in a collision? If that is what you're trying to say, that's stupid. If a motorist is piloting a ~1500kg vehicle capable of causing massive damage to both people and property, they should be held to much greater levels of scrutiny that someone (like a cyclist) who is not capable of causing such damage. (Or, if that wasn't what you were trying to say, you should probably re-read Aushiker's post! :wink:)

no, i think what he's saying is - you'd be foolish to rely on what motorists "should" do and that you should take steps to account for their inevitable negligence. that's not the same as apologising for their negligence - we all agree that motorists should take care. the fact is, some won't.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:12 pm

According to the law as it stands, the smokeboxer was in the wrong, correct?

Still, the most important law. One that nobody should ever transgress: the law of common sense tells me the rider went a long way towards sharing responsibility for the prang.

Being in the right AND in a bodybag is just a teensy bit silly IMO.

Late Edit. Dave, we should all use common sense and commom courtesy when using the roads, but being the ones who will get hurt most of the time, it's up to us to do our utmost to compensate for the incompetance, bloodymindedness or sheer silliness of others.

Not saying it's right, just saying it's so. :wink:
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby il padrone » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:13 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
elStado wrote:
That's because we weigh ~80kg and have no protection as opposed to a vehicle weighing ~1500kg and the occupant covered in a protective metal shell. In an accident between a cyclist and motorist, even if the motorist is at full fault, who do you think will come out more worse for wear? That is why cyclists should ride defensively at all times and always expect a car or other danger (e.g. pedestrian with dog) to come out of no where.

It sounds a lot like you're saying that motorists shouldn't have to drive defensively, because they're less likely to be injured in a collision? If that is what you're trying to say, that's stupid. If a motorist is piloting a ~1500kg vehicle capable of causing massive damage to both people and property, they should be held to much greater levels of scrutiny that someone (like a cyclist) who is not capable of causing such damage. (Or, if that wasn't what you were trying to say, you should probably re-read Aushiker's post! :wink:)

+1

In Europe the much more pro-cycling approach is this:

In an accident between a cyclist and motorist, even if the motorist is at full fault, who do you think will come out more worse for wear? That is why motorists should drive defensively at all times and always expect a cyclist or other vulnerable road user (e.g. pedestrian with dog) to come out of no where.


No reason why it should not be the expectation here.
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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby Aushiker » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:23 pm

jules21 wrote:
TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:It sounds a lot like you're saying that motorists shouldn't have to drive defensively, because they're less likely to be injured in a collision? If that is what you're trying to say, that's stupid. If a motorist is piloting a ~1500kg vehicle capable of causing massive damage to both people and property, they should be held to much greater levels of scrutiny that someone (like a cyclist) who is not capable of causing such damage. (Or, if that wasn't what you were trying to say, you should probably re-read Aushiker's post! :wink:)

no, i think what he's saying is - you'd be foolish to rely on what motorists "should" do and that you should take steps to account for their inevitable negligence. that's not the same as apologising for their negligence - we all agree that motorists should take care. the fact is, some won't.


I am sorry but it seems both you and elStado may benefit from re-reading carefully what I actually said. TheSkyMovesSideways picked up on what I actually said. I simply pointed out as TheSkyMovesSideways has explained, elStado early statements making the point that only cyclists need to ride defensively are stupid ... we have defensive and advanced driving courses for very good reasons - just look at the road death statistics to see why.

Hell if the driver in this video had driven defensively the crash could have been avoided :roll:

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Re: Cycling blogger hit by a car – here’s how it happened..

Postby jules21 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:27 pm

i think this is what's called furious agreement :)
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby goodlookingcyclist » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:50 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:The cyclist is wholly responsible due to travelling far too fast for the conditions, not slowing and verifying that an intersection is safe to cross, and positioning himself alongside the stationary van and out of view of other road users.


No he is not wholly responsible.
the cyclist could have done things different to avoid a clollision, BUT so could the car driver.
The car driver also was travelling to fast for the conditions, also did not verify it was safe to cross, and also positioned himself outside the vieuw of other road users.


Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:This rider is a prize tool and it irks me that forum members spring to this idiots defence in this case.
In my time as a motorist and cyclist I have long since learned to never leave anything to chance and I ride and drive accordingly - that is I drive and ride defensively.
Remember the thread where a forum member blamed a motorist for his action of spearing off a bikeway and into traffic, and then riding dangerously further down the street.
Cyclists who are bad ambassadors for the overall cycling community thoroughly deserve to be lambasted for their lack of foresight.
Rant over.


You can rant all you want , calling him a tool/idiot and whatever is uncalled for, it says more about you then it does about him.
Why don't you get of your high horse and stop pretending that every accident can be avoided as long as we al ride like you ; 'defensifly'.
The main reason why accidents happen is not the way we ride/drive but because humans make mistakes, and that includes you, and the person in the video.
The only thing defensive riding does is to allow room for the fact that others make mistake, so we can act accordingly and avoid other peoples mistakes.
please note that if those others didn't make mistakes , there would be no need to ride defensifly in the first place.

He was not reckless at all, he just made a mistake, just as the car driver did.
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:29 pm

simonn wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Except then the motor cyclist would be at fault...not aloud to ride motor bike in bus lanes in the UK (unless its changed?).


You definitely allowed to ride a motorbike in the bus lanes in London, so I would assume the same for the rest of the UK.


Only in the last 2 years or so...before that it was illegal.
Honestly I can't remember if I got done or not on my motorbike...I was working contract for the AA riding a breakdown motorbike.I know I had a 1 or 2 K UK excess and I definitely didn't pay that or get fined...but I wrote off the bike and did some serious damage to the car...and on the bicycle one I just got up,put my chain back on,said I was OK and carried on.Poor guy,he was at fault but the car was written off (I took out a windscreen pillar and folded in half the roof).
Yes I didn't worry about my own safety in those days :roll: .
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Re: This Cyclist Deserves To Be Run Over...

Postby Aushiker » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:28 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Honestly I can't remember if I got done or not on my motorbike...I was working contract for the AA riding a breakdown motorbike.I know I had a 1 or 2 K UK excess and I definitely didn't pay that or get fined...but I wrote off the bike and did some serious damage to the car...and on the bicycle one I just got up,put my chain back on,said I was OK and carried on.Poor guy,he was at fault but the car was written off (I took out a windscreen pillar and folded in half the roof).
Yes I didn't worry about my own safety in those days :roll: .


Jesus you play hard :)

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