keep left on shared paths

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby human909 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:03 am

The degree that we love to regulate every little part of life is disturbing.

Do you really think that Europe has such inane regulations of cycling on paths?
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by BNA » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:06 am

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:06 am

il padrone wrote: I'm not aware of any such approach being used on Dutch cycle paths.

Inter- annd intra-uban bike paths are often exclusive (no pedestrians), in direct contrast to our 'bike' paths. Seperate pedestrian paths often exist. Where pedestrians share with bikes the walking rules are clear as far as I am aware - keep right, same as bikes.


Just to "raise" your awareness. 8)
(from my links, and bit of research, you would have found this info)
The "Monderman Model" as it was called.

It is worth noting that Monderman's accomplishments have deep roots.
One of the better known is the Dutch Woonerf or "Living Street" project,
which had its origins in a basically unplanned citizen initiative in Delft in 1968.


A woonerf (Dutch plural: woonerven) in the Netherlands and Flanders
is a street where pedestrians and cyclists have legal priority over motorists.
The techniques of shared spaces, traffic calming, and low speed limits
are intended to improve pedestrian, bicycle, and automobile safety.

In 1999 the Netherlands had over 6000 woonerfs.

:mrgreen:

Note: many parts of USA, and quite a few other Countries around the World,
are now adopting this model.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:25 am

All very well. I am well aware of Woonerfs, but they are very local, residential neighborhoods.

Not the sort of longer distance commuting shared paths I thought we were talking about. When the Dutch want to ride across town, to work or shop, it's not Woonerfs they are riding on.

Typical Woonerf

Image


Dutch bike paths

Image
Image
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:55 am

You may wish to take a broader view, it's not just what's happening in "your" local. :roll:

Woonerfs, an early model, The "Monderman Model" as it was called.
Have now advanced, and being used extensively, around Europe, and further.
Hans Monderman, was still involved till very recently (deceased R.I.P.)
The organisation is here... and many countries represented.
http://www.shared-space.org/
And this is a Dutch city (Haren) layout, these days.
(no separation, minimal markings/signs etc.)
Image
image link, if you wish to see the whole area
http://www.shared-space.org/files/18441/Haren_after.jpg
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:06 pm

brentono wrote:You may wish to take a broader view, it's not just what's happening in "your" local. :roll:

Umm......


I am taking a broader view. Those photos are from Netherlands. Nothing to do with my local area :roll:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby human909 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:11 pm

This thread is starting to become deranged.

Incidentally in Holland pedestrians on paths normally keep right. (As in the same as keeping left here.) And as il padrone said, the dutch also have dedicated bike paths with are good for higher speeds and longer distance commuting.

But what do I know. I only lived there for 4 years. :roll:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby sogood » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:16 pm

European models are great for European cities and towns. We need our models that function with our infrastructure and our social circumstances. Grass on the other side of the fence may not thrive when transplanted. :roll:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:43 pm

il padrone wrote:
brentono wrote:You may wish to take a broader view, it's not just what's happening in "your" local. :roll:

Umm......


I am taking a broader view. Those photos are from Netherlands. Nothing to do with my local area :roll:


Amusing, that you took it so personal, as you did the "two-a-breast" rule.
What happens in "your" world may not be the general rule, OK.

Netherlands, is one place, in Europe, and as I have shown they have taken the steps towards
shared-space, removing separation, and with minimal markings/signs etc
and most rules, that's what's happening... now. Many others in the EU are also.
As I have pointed out, many parts of USA, and quite a few other Countries around the World,
are now adopting this model.

It would be nice if Australia could head this way, but I doubt it.
(Getting away from the way we regulate every little part of life, which is very disturbing-+1=point 909)

So, the OP, asked which was safer.
For me, I will follow the Australian Road Rules, and the recommendations,
in their literature, stick to the right of the path, face on-coming cyclists
(within my rights, unless deliberately obstructing, which I am not)
And it will be, by law, the cyclists responsibilty to not run into me.
Repect and sensibility should prevail, and we will probably exchange greeting,
well at least I will. :)
(As for the pre-mentioned relativity of "closing speeds", if it was relevent, and less safe,
it would be more relevent between a pedestrian and a car... which the ARR did not find.)
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby jet-ski » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:09 pm

Image

those kind of shared spaces exist world over, to be sure.... and it doesn't always look nice and pleasant like the examples from Western Europe!
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:03 pm

jet-ski.
Amusing/Amazing, limited rules, limited supervision, limited space
and a lot of "traffic" ... throw in a bit of commonsense, and it seems to work.
(could be the right attitude, that's my take.)
Spent most of the last couple of decades, commuting on a bike,
over a lot of Asia, with not one accident (a survivor)... must be luck,
or divine intervention. :wink:
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm

brentono wrote:(As for the pre-mentioned relativity of "closing speeds", if it was relevent, and less safe,
it would be more relevent between a pedestrian and a car... which the ARR did not find.)
:mrgreen:


Dunno how many times you'll put up the debunked point. Pedestrians vacate the roadway on approach of a car. Pedestrians on paths do not vacate (and are not expected to).
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:22 pm

brentono wrote:jet-ski.
Amusing/Amazing, limited rules, limited supervision, limited space
and a lot of "traffic" ... throw in a bit of commonsense, and it seems to work.
(could be the right attitude, that's my take.)
Spent most of the last couple of decades, commuting on a bike,
over a lot of Asia, with not one accident (a survivor)... must be luck,
or divine intervention. :wink:
:mrgreen:


The common sense is unfortunately lacking - Vietnam has a considerably higher road toll per capita and per travel km than many other countries - and thats in the context of a country that doesn't even keep the records properly and is likely to underestimate fatalities and particularly injuries. Motorcycles on the wrong side of the road is a commonly cited factor.

Presuming thats india - they are heading towards insanely high road tolls.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:28 pm

zero wrote:
Dunno how many times you'll put up the debunked point.


debunked point= o·pin·ion·at·ed

It is suggested by the Australian Road Rules Maintenance Group,
that walking on the side of the road in the same direction as
and immediately adjacent to other traffic, is inherently dangerous.


Fact (you wish to ignore) :lol:
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:40 pm

brentono wrote:
zero wrote:
Dunno how many times you'll put up the debunked point.


debunked point= o·pin·ion·at·ed


= boring repitition
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Oxford » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:53 pm

Image
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby jet-ski » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:00 pm

Yeh it's India.... don't even want to know what the road toll is :P
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:07 pm

brentono wrote:
side of the road in the same


Discussion is about paths.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:12 pm

India's version of Shared Space is a bit out of kilter

Image
http://www.smh.com.au/world/more-cars-m ... -lnf5.html

SMH wrote:Experts predict that more than 150,000 Indians will die in traffic accidents this year, the highest road toll in the world.....

.....Thirty years ago there were only about 5 million cars in India; now there are more than 75 million. The road toll is rising at 8 per cent a year and, on current trends, will reach 200,000 by 2015....

..... But India's road carnage is not just a result of its large population. The US has six times more vehicles than India but its road toll is about a third.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:45 pm

zero wrote:
brentono wrote:
side of the road in the same


Discussion is about paths.


Discussion is about Shared Space, now! :lol:
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:52 pm

brentono wrote:
Discussion is about Shared Space, now! :lol:
:mrgreen:


yay!
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:01 pm

il padrone wrote:
brentono wrote:
zero wrote:
Dunno how many times you'll put up the debunked point.


debunked point= o·pin·ion·at·ed


= boring repitition


Is that boring repetition (when members are from different States)
like "..... in Melbourne" or "..... in Victoria" - as if that's all that exists :roll:
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:21 pm

zero wrote:
brentono wrote:
Discussion is about Shared Space, now! :lol:
:mrgreen:


yay!


Yep! Started back just after the "timeout" ... there's a good chance you missed it.
(instead of trying to nit-pick every word I say, you might want to get OT :? )
:mrgreen:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby sogood » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:15 pm

brentono wrote:throw in a bit of commonsense, and it seems to work.

Common sense doesn't exist once the size of a population goes beyond a certain critical point. As for crowded Asian streets packed with bikes, scooters and motor vehicles.... You'd be surprised by the true death and accident rate.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:23 pm

brentono wrote:Is that boring repetition (when members are from different States)
like "..... in Melbourne" or "..... in Victoria" - as if that's all that exists

Enough of this thread


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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby sogood » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:27 pm

il padrone wrote:Enough of this thread
Image

Do you recommend a helmet in this exercise? :roll:
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