keep left on shared paths

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:23 pm

BigPete wrote:I think you are saying it makes no difference to safety which way they face so if we go with that view then there is no valid reason why they should not walk to the right. However as I said earlier there is a greater risk from being hit by protruding objects from motorised traffic in this particular situation.


nup - never seen/heard about anyone hit by anything from a road vehicle there. Road lanes themselves aren't exceptionally narrow and only buses in it really - and they are usually not moving fast there - 90 deg corner ahead, and bus stop behind.

I am saying that it makes no difference to the side clearance or numbers of bicycles approaching the pedestrian from behind. I believe it in fact has a negative influence on the speed of bicycles passing from behind (ie it makes them faster), because you default to requiring the oncoming bicycle to give way to the bicycle that is behind rather than the bicycle coming from behind to give way to the bicycle coming from in front. By default always being in the path of the bicycle coming from behind - increases the planning time available on average to cyclists, and reduces the average speed of bicycles passing from behind.

Since it is also known that the modern pedestrian has a mobile phone, an ipod and finds their shoelaces fascinating, and tends not to keep a reasonable lookout, I also prefer they don't look up and panic before they've assessed my speed. The guy in my vid panic steps before he realises that I am able to stop, and this is what right walkers do all the bloody time. Left walkers look up and see the oncoming bicycle missing them, and don't panic, and IMO there can only be 2 approaches - walkers walk left - or walkers become responsible for keeping a proper lookout. I know which one they'd chose and it sure aint keeping a proper lookout.
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by BNA » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:50 am

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:50 am

Oxford wrote:I have no idea where there are shared pathways that are 3 to 5 metres wide in Brisbane, please tell me where they are. as for this thread its become too much of thisImage, I'm outta here.Image


Respect for your debate Oxford. It does get frustrating with all the green smiles covering mockery and illogical arguments.

In big wide paths pedestrians can have the luxury walk where they like. As long as they are predictable then all is good. On the majority of paths it makes much more sense to keep left. While it may not be law, many share paths indicate with arrows that pedestrians should keep left. As the video above showed.

il padrone wrote:You sure have it good up there then. Here in Melbourne there are only a handful of shared paths that are 3 metres wide, none that I know of that are 5 Metres wide. WOW!


The paths in Carlton Gardens are 5.5m I believe. However our wise Lord Mayor decided to crack down on cyclists using these issuing $300 fines to cyclists using them. Which was so friendly considering the primary north-south bike boulevard of Canning St ends at Carlton Gardens. To top it all off cyclists were encouraged to used the 2.5m wide Nicholson St shared footpath with street furniture every 20m. :roll: :evil: :x :twisted:


Anyway at least we all agree on one thing... Cyclists should keep left. :D
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:05 am

human909 wrote:
il padrone wrote:You sure have it good up there then. Here in Melbourne there are only a handful of shared paths that are 3 metres wide, none that I know of that are 5 Metres wide. WOW!


The paths in Carlton Gardens are 5.5m I believe. However our wise Lord Mayor decided to crack down on cyclists using these issuing $300 fines to cyclists using them.

Yep, to my knowledge those have never been bike paths or shared paths, officially.

The shared path over the 'eel-race' bridge might be 5 metres wide I guess, but that one has other issues.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:44 am

il padrone wrote:Yep, to my knowledge those have never been bike paths or shared paths, officially.

Thats my understanding too, at least in modern times. I'm sure these were shared paths 100 years ago, shared between horse buggies, pedestrians and cyclists! :D
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:12 am

human909 wrote: It does get frustrating with all the green smiles covering mockery and illogical arguments.


Anyway at least we all agree on one thing... Cyclists should keep left. :D


green smiles covering mockery and illogical arguments= Pot.Kettle.Black :roll:

Cyclists should keep left= It's the law. :)

Anyway 909, you can constantly have a go, but when you get involved (anytime),
I (+others) know it's time to get out. :wink:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby BigPete » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:19 pm

Oxford wrote:I have no idea where there are shared pathways that are 3 to 5 metres wide in Brisbane, please tell me where they are. as for this thread its become too much of thisImage, I'm outta here.Image


Most of the paths from Darra to the city via the Centenary Highway are 3 metres wide. The bicentennial bikeway is a mix of 3 and 5.5 metres. Paths at Jindalee are 3 metres. If I am not mistaken, the paths at Wooloowin & Toombul along Schulz Canal are 3 metres also but not 100% sure on that.

Please forgive me about my statement about the 5 metre paths. I was classing what I have since learnt to be 'separated' paths as shared paths. However the Goodwill Bridge is over 5 metres although it is only 500 metres long.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:08 pm

BigPete,
From the outset, and your original question, about safety on shared-paths,
also termed and signed as shared path road marked-beginning/shared path road end-marked.
With the definition of cyclists, being included in Traffic.
Here's a short excerpt from the amended 2005 Australian Road Rules
As approved by the Australian Transport Council and Published by the
National Road Transport Commission... and still valid up to Feb 2009,
with no sign of change.
Also applies, to road shoulder, and verge areas... so why not extend it?
It is suggested by the Australian Road Rules Maintenance Group,
that walking on the side of the road in the same direction as
and immediately adjacent to other traffic, is inherently dangerous.
It is intended to require pedestrians, if walking on a road,
to walk on the far side of the road so as to face oncoming traffic
unless it is impractical to do so.
This will provide the pedestrian greater protection as they will be aware
and see all oncoming traffic; enabling them to take some action
should the traffic be approaching too close.

Impact: It is not anticipated there will be any adverse impact on road users, as most
pedestrians already practise this behaviour.
Costs: The only costs imposed by this amendment are those that accompany the making of
amendments.
Benefit: The benefits are to achieve a cohesive set of rules that reflect community needs
and expectations.


"unless it is impractical to do so" was The amendment, in 2005. of the 1999 rule. :roll:
(sometimes things have to be spelled out)

Since, "most pedestrians already practise this behaviour" and we can
"achieve a cohesive set of rules that reflect community needs and expectations."
Would it be so hard to implement this on shared path roads,
involving cycling traffic, and pedestrians, for a safer outcome.
(as no rule or convention exist, now)
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:25 pm

Would it be so hard to implement this on shared path roads,
involving cycling traffic, and pedestrians, for a safer outcome.
(as no rule or convention exist, now)


How many times do we have to point out that walking on the right side is done because the pedestrian on a road is a second class citizen expected to vacate the carriageway on approach of a vehicle. Vacating is specifically written into the rules, and the safety benefit is strictly that vehicles approaching from behind default to having significant clearance. A physical fact that doesn't occur on paths.

This is not appropriate for share paths, and does not reflect the fact that the pedestrian is a first class citizen on share paths, not expected to vacate the path in the presence of other traffic. The rule and conventions have already been set by councils at local levels, deciding, marking and enforcing that pedestrians keep left.

Pedestrians include the sub class runners, and runners approaching crests and blind corners at bicycle speeds on the wrong side of the path does not make sense, and can and do cause ped-ped knock down incidents, and will drastically foreshorten braking distances for bicycles already keeping left as required by law already.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:31 pm

no rule or convention exist, now
:roll:

... as is so often pointed out here, in many posts, complaining about pedestrians :lol:
:mrgreen:

Edit:
The rule and conventions have already been set by councils at local levels,
deciding, marking and enforcing that pedestrians keep left.

:lol:
Zero.
That's got to be the biggest joke I've heard, council types don't have the first clue.
Though, they THINK they have power, they do not, and it's not their responsibility.
Which part of-
Australian Road Rules
As approved by the Australian Transport Council
Published by the National Road Transport Commission
Maintained by the National Transport Commission
... don't you understand.
Their trying for some sort of agreement at a National Level. :wink:
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Boognoss » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:33 pm

Image

24 hour timeout.

I will unlock this in 24 hours' time. If you can not help resorting to name calling and thinly veiled personal attacks it will be permanently locked.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:40 pm

brentono wrote:
no rule or convention exist, now
:roll:

... as is so often pointed out here, in many posts, complaining about pedestrians :lol:
:mrgreen:

Edit:
The rule and conventions have already been set by councils at local levels,
deciding, marking and enforcing that pedestrians keep left.

:lol:
Zero.
That's got to be the biggest joke I've heard, council types don't have the first clue.
Though, they THINK they have power, they do not, and it's not their responsibility.


Virtually all share paths are maintained, and designated for usage types by local councils that I'm aware of. At best they might receive some fed or state funding for creation/maint, but remain the responsible entity. ie the COS decided that a lane on kent st would be dedicated to bicycles, and that the arrangement would include a contra-flow lane on sections that were otherwise one way. COS is both the planning body and the responsible maintainance body. They also have rangers capable of enforcement.

I think it is drummoyne council responsible for the path entry point being too close to the abutment of iron cove bridge etc - and it was the council that gazetted the path for bi-directional shared usage in the first place, and it was council workers that painted the lines and pedestrian directional indicators on the whole white bay to iron cove share pathing, and its the council that maintains the pavement.

You can tell when the RTA has responsibility for any sort of cycle infrastructure, because its perpetually closed and bypassed.

Which part of-
Australian Road Rules
As approved by the Australian Transport Council
Published by the National Road Transport Commission
Maintained by the National Transport Commission
... don't you understand.
Their trying for some sort of agreement at a National Level. :wink:


aye, but the local body decides which traffic goes into what lane, and which direction the lane flow is. The ARRs just tell you how to interpret the markings as supplied by the local body, particularly in situations where it is not made absolutely clear.

if they want to say pedestrians go here, and be on this side for travel, its within their jurisdiction to do so. When faced with the actual responsibility of managing pedestrian/cyclist interaction, many have chosen pedestrians left to the extent of painting it into the lanes - and as I've noted previously, your source document recommends that the interpretation be made general again and not just where the responsible body has indicated it specifically.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:25 pm

For those interested, you may well see, that a National approach is being put in place. -linked below.
Maybe some consensus will be achieved, though it would seem that more effort is being put towards
the cyclist/pedestrian void, only, by making everything more restrictive. Which may drive parties,
further apart.

http://www.austroads.com.au/abc/index.php?type=main&id=2
http://www.austroads.com.au/documents/TheAustralianNationalCyclingStrategy2005-2010.pdf

An Alternative-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
Could shared-space ideas being a more acceptable approach, with each of the
parties showing more respect to the other, and the removal of signs, rules and restrictions.
Maybe this is the alternative, and essentially, what it means is a transfer of power
and responsibility from the state to the individual and the community.

Great quote from Award winning planner/traffic engineer -

'Who has the right of way? I don't care,' said Hans Monderman, a traffic engineer.
'People here have to find their own way, negotiate for themselves, use their own brains.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Monderman

Up for discussion.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:49 pm

brentono wrote:An Alternative-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
Could shared-space ideas being a more acceptable approach, with each of the
parties showing more respect to the other, and the removal of signs, rules and restrictions.
Maybe this is the alternative, and essentially, what it means is a transfer of power
and responsibility from the state to the individual and the community.

Shared Space is being used a gret deal in many European cities, and seems to be a great concept with significant calming effects, big socialising value and no increased risks, often reduced accident rates. But it is generally used in specific locations and in dense inner urban areas. I'm not aware of any such approach being used on Dutch cycle paths.

Inter- annd intra-uban bike paths are often exclusive (no pedestrians), in direct contrast to our 'bike' paths. Seperate pedestrian paths often exist. Where pedestrians share with bikes the walking rules are clear as far as I am aware - keep right, same as bikes.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby zero » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:26 pm

Pyrmont bridge is an example of shared space in NSW - had to be extensively signposted to 10km/hr to stop it being a cycle dragway, and make it easy to have tourists with kids etc doing random things.

Unfortunately our typical bicycle commute distance is greater than the average casual bike commuter distance in europe (due to car based planning and sprawl) and that has to be met with some time efficiency (ie opportunities to use reasonable speed). General planning worship for the car unsuprisingly leads to entire sections of road rules being required to govern pedestrian behavior - and the vast real estate more or less effectively dedicated to motoring, squeezes the interactions between pedestrians and cyclists and forces rules to be needed there too.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby wombatK » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:35 pm

zero wrote:I think it is drummoyne council responsible for the path entry point being too close to the abutment of iron cove bridge etc - and it was the council that gazetted the path for bi-directional shared usage in the first place, and it was council workers that painted the lines and pedestrian directional indicators on the whole white bay to iron cove share pathing, and its the council that maintains the pavement.

Leichardt council is responsible for the southern approaches, City of Canada Bay for the northern approaches. See Local Government Area boundaries map. The bridge itself is probably RTA infrastructure, but they usually designate one of the council's as their agent to do the maintenance work etc.,.

There's the infamous Maria Guliano v Leichhardt Council case, which arose when a cyclist hit an elderly pedestrian who had climbed the steps at the southern end of the Iron Cove Bridge. Mrs Guliano suffered very serious head injuries when she walked into the cyclists path apparently without seeing the cyclist, who was travelling at about 20 km per hour. Leichhardt Council settled it out of court.

Pedestrian steps into a shared pathway, causing a collision, yet somehow argues that the Council is liable for the injuries they receive. The law is a complete ass.

But maybe there's a moral to the story : don't worry about what side of the shared pathway to walk on - just rest assured in the knowledge you can sue the local council if you step in front of a cyclist.

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Aushiker » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:02 pm

brentono wrote:Which part of-
Australian Road Rules
As approved by the Australian Transport Council
Published by the National Road Transport Commission
Maintained by the National Transport Commission
... :


Hi

Just a small point of clarification ... there are NO national road rules as such. The Australian Road Rules referred to are set of uniform rules that states are encouraged to adopt but are not obliged to and as the Federal government has no power in this regard they are not of legal standing. That said the states have adopted either in full or part the Australian Road Rules. WA for one has not fully adopted them.

An informed discussion of road rules requires appropriate reference to the relevant state road codes which have legal standing not the Australian Road Rules. In the case of WA you can find them here.

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Aushiker » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:07 pm

Hi

Getting back to the discussion of walking on the left ... here are a couple of videos of what I experienced a couple of days ago as it happens.

In the first clip this was on a road, but it highlights in my view the issue of walking towards a cyclist on the cyclists left (well had she been with her friend and stayed there it would have been fine) but it illustrates what can happen on a path. BTW I had already started to move to the right of the women in the middle of the road before she reacted and hence I had to change direction.

In the second clip, the girl in the green top actually started to go to my right and then changed her mind. Had she been walking on the other side of the path there wouldn't have been an issue at all.



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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Boognoss » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:09 pm

A bit of a repost from the "Dumb cyclists and peds" thread in General but this video happened this morning in the space of 1km. If I wasn't cautious, plenty of chance for me to come a cropper.

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Christine Tham » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:48 am

I hate riders with poor lane discipline in that section of the Gore Hill cycleway!

I've had similar issues to you - runners on the bike lane, cyclists coasting down at high speeds on the wrong lane through the bend, poseur bunches who ride 2 abreast on the cyclepath and won't even budge when they see a cyclist coming at them.

Sorry ... rant over. I've taken my Valium ... ahhh.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:59 am

Christine Tham wrote: ... poseur bunches who ride 2 abreast on the cyclepath and won't even budge
when they see a cyclist coming at them.


Would seem, CT, I totally agree with you here. :o
Have seen this often, while out riding, on the shared paths, and it is totally illegal
(2 abreast ... Rule is, cyclist in groups MUST stay in single file, on the left side, unless passing.)
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:06 am

brentono wrote:Have seen this often, while out riding, on the shared paths, and it is totally illegal
(2 abreast ... Rule is, cyclist in groups MUST stay in single file, on the left side, unless passing.)

I'm unsure where you get this from?? I mean, drivers keep telling me that about riding on the road - don't make it no rule.

It's not in the Victorian Road Rules at all (and probably not in the NSW Road Rules). Maybe it's yet another WA thing.



Mind you, I'd agree that 2-abreast is often very impolite and unsafe on bike paths. But if we had 5 metre wide paths, it'd be fine.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby Aushiker » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:16 am

il padrone wrote:
brentono wrote:Have seen this often, while out riding, on the shared paths, and it is totally illegal
(2 abreast ... Rule is, cyclist in groups MUST stay in single file, on the left side, unless passing.)

I'm unsure where you get this from?? I mean, drivers keep telling me that about riding on the road - don't make it no rule.

It's not in the Victorian Road Rules at all (and probably not in the NSW Road Rules). Maybe it's yet another WA thing.


hi

Could be WA specific, but it only applies to shared and separated paths.

216. Shared paths and separated footpaths

(4) A person shall not ride a bicycle on a separated footpath or a shared path so that the bicycle is travelling abreast of any other bicycle on the path.

(5) Subregulation (4) does not prevent a cyclist from overtaking or passing other persons riding bicycles on the path.

(6) For the purposes of this regulation, a bicycle is abreast of another bicycle if any part of it is by the side of any part of the other.


Personally I have no problem with the rule as most of the shared paths I ride on, where there are in particular groups of riders doing this it can be very intimidating and worse for others.

Frankly it would be nice if the more aggressive groups of riders dealt with their "manhood" issues in more appropriate ways.

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:22 am

il padrone wrote:
brentono wrote:Have seen this often, while out riding, on the shared paths, and it is totally illegal
(2 abreast ... Rule is, cyclist in groups MUST stay in single file, on the left side, unless passing.)

I'm unsure where you get this from?? I mean, drivers keep telling me that about riding on the road - don't make it no rule.

FYI :wink:
We may be a little ahead of you over here in the WEST :lol:
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/cycling/1976.asp

â– Riders must keep left on shared paths and footpaths unless overtaking.


â– Riders must only travel in single file on all paths, though they can travel two abreast on a road.

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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby brentono » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:44 am

Aushiker wrote:... where there are in particular groups of riders doing this
it can be very intimidating and worse for others.

Frankly it would be nice if the more aggressive groups of riders dealt with their "manhood" issues
in more appropriate ways.

Andrew


Would seem, Andrew, I also totally agree with you here. :o

I find it very intimidating, and having reasonable experience of bunch
riding, both training, and racing, it screams of DANGER to me.
(half the group, or more, look (to me) inexperienced, and they are struggling.)
The group is travelling TOO fast on a shared-path, two-a-breast and looks
like an accident waiting to happen, to me.

"manhood" issues, right A, or lack of it. :(

Laws/Rules are fine (and it doesn't matter who makes them)
Enforcement, is the key.
Where is the so called "Authority" when they're needed.
End of rant.
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Re: keep left on shared paths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:55 am

For information

The only rule that applies on bike paths in Victoria is:

Victorian Road Rules wrote:250 Riding on a footpath or shared path.....

....(2) The rider of a bicycle riding on a footpath or shared path must—
(a) keep to the left of the footpath or shared path unless it is impracticable to do so; and
(b) give way to any pedestrian on the footpath or shared path.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.


3 penalty units is a pretty solid fine - about $360 I believe.

While I don't recommend 2-abreast on trails, there are some sections of trail I know of that are almost wide enough to ride like this with discretion. The Dandenong Creek Trail is wide enough for a 500m section, as is this new surface through Koomba Park (almost).

Image

I don't ride 2-abreast though.
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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