No wonder we have a bad name

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No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Ross » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:05 pm

Riding home from work today through the city (Canb) and a builder guy in his Land Bruiser with a trailer load of timber pulls out in front of me from a building site. Whatever mate, don't want you to be 1.5 seconds late getting home. No huge deal, a mild irritation, I just slowed down a bit and started riding behind him, about a car length back. The street was only a few hundred metres long and we were doing about 40km/h, maybe less and then on my right some muppet (presumably a Uni student) comes flying along on his MTB and overtakes me and starts to overtake the 4WD and trailer. Remember the street ends in about 100m by now.

Mr Land Bruiser puts his indicator to go right and the last minute Muppet does notice it (as the 4WD starts to turn in on him) so Muppet falls in between the trailer and me. As I mentioned the trailer has a few lengths of timber in it and Muppet is riding along about 10cm off the back of it. Muppet then looks behind him for some reason (to look where I was or check for other cars - who knows why?) and while he was doing this Mr Land Bruiser starts slowing down for the upcoming T intersection.

I could see what was about to happen and didn't know whether to laugh or warn the guy. I decided to do nothing and figured Muppet would get his just deserts but just at the last second Muppet turned back around and saw the lengths of timber just cms away from spearing him in the chest and managed to lock up both wheels of the MTB and avoid collision. Pity. Might of taught Muppet a lesson. Or not.
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by BNA » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:25 pm

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Wayfarer » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:25 pm

This one time this SUV driver overtook me with a (british style) high-nosed look (as if to say 'oh dear, that is your vehicle? i payed $26,000 for mine, thus and therefore it is logical to conclude i am superior in every way shape and form, even though the petrol costs alone will ensure i never get a holiday) to stop behind a truck, not 50 meters ahead. How come they dont have a bad name?

Edit; oh wait thats right, we live in Australia, a culture riddled with double-standards, where if a middle easterner beats someone up, they're bastards and a social problem, but when a aussie guy stabs a kid to death, the newspapers just show mourning and dont even name the guy.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby TimW » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:02 pm

Wayfarer wrote:This one time this SUV driver overtook me with a (british style) high-nosed look (as if to say 'oh dear, that is your vehicle? i payed $26,000 for mine, thus and therefore it is logical to conclude i am superior in every way shape and form, even though the petrol costs alone will ensure i never get a holiday) to stop behind a truck, not 50 meters ahead. How come they dont have a bad name?

Edit; oh wait thats right, we live in Australia, a culture riddled with double-standards, where if a middle easterner beats someone up, they're bastards and a social problem, but when a aussie guy stabs a kid to death, the newspapers just show mourning and dont even name the guy.



Twisted attitude mate, chill out or get to a shrink asap..
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby sogood » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm

Well, different groups of people just like to bash another group who are in conflict with them. So motorists hate cyclists and pedestrians, cyclists hate driver and pedestrians, pedestrians hate cyclists and motorists, and so the relationship goes on. There'll always be enough monkeys in each group who don't understand the meaning of sharing and rules, and are there to inflame the relationships.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Wayfarer » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:22 pm

TimW wrote:Twisted attitude mate, chill out or get to a shrink asap..

All i can say is hey, prove me wrong. edit;
sogood wrote:Well, different groups of people just like to bash another group who are in conflict with them. So motorists hate cyclists and pedestrians, cyclists hate driver and pedestrians, pedestrians hate cyclists and motorists, and so the relationship goes on. There'll always be enough monkeys in each group who don't understand the meaning of sharing and rules, and are there to inflame the relationships.

And when this is evident in the front page of your local paper, you'd tend to agree to the fact.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby TimW » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:25 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
TimW wrote:Twisted attitude mate, chill out or get to a shrink asap..

All i can say is hey, prove me wrong. edit;




No need to prove anything, i just stated an opinion as did you.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:03 pm

We have a bad name because we are a soft target.

Or, as was recently put so well in another thread by another member...
We're an "out group".

We dress funny, we do weird incomprehensible things like ... exercise, we look different (not obese), and very occasionally we present them with a minor inconvenience (having to use the muscles in their pinky finger to flip the indicator stalk to initiate a lane change).

Because of the former items, we don't seem to be "like them" - that is, people. Instead, in their minds we become objects, so the last item gets blown out of all human proportion and injuring or killing is of no consequence until after the fact, when they suddenly realise they're deep in excrement of their own depositing.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby martinjs » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:05 am

Mulger bill wrote:We have a bad name because we are a soft target.

Or, as was recently put so well in another thread by another member...
We're an "out group".

We dress funny, we do weird incomprehensible things like ... exercise, we look different (not obese), and very occasionally we present them with a minor inconvenience (having to use the muscles in their pinky finger to flip the indicator stalk to initiate a lane change).

Because of the former items, we don't seem to be "like them" - that is, people. Instead, in their minds we become objects, so the last item gets blown out of all human proportion and injuring or killing is of no consequence until after the fact, when they suddenly realise they're deep in excrement of their own depositing.


Yes and no to that, I've been a car enthusiasts and a Motorcycle enthusiasts and Cycle one as well. No doubt idiots in all groups but if you take the amount of people cycling compared to people driving percentage wise, I believe the cyclist group (unfortunately) seem to have more muppets than is good for us.

Here in Leeton I don't see all that many cyclist but a high percentage of them don't seem to believe in the rules, and I don't mean pushing the limits but things like riding on the wrong side of the road, crossing any old where with out looking, riding on the foot path and such like. :cry:
Yes I know there are lots of Muppet car drivers but it would help if we could clean up out own back yard first.
Déjà vu the interesting thing about this us v them debate is it's EXACTLY the same arguments when I was involved the the Motorcycling lobby groups and when I was involved in the car enthusiasts as well.
Seems that every group has people in it that likes to point the finger and blame another group for their problems. :lol:

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby CrazyVictorian » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:22 pm

Wayfarer wrote:Edit; oh wait thats right, we live in Australia, a culture riddled with double-standards, where if a middle easterner beats someone up, they're bastards and a social problem, but when a aussie guy stabs a kid to death, the newspapers just show mourning and dont even name the guy.

Lol! What? You need to chill out - There's good and bad in every group, I can assure you there are cultures in some countries doing it alot tougher than you are

I don't know what you're trying to gain by bringing your cynical views in this thread?
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby martinjs » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:06 pm

CrazyVictorian wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:Edit; oh wait thats right, we live in Australia, a culture riddled with double-standards, where if a middle easterner beats someone up, they're bastards and a social problem, but when a aussie guy stabs a kid to death, the newspapers just show mourning and dont even name the guy.

Lol! What? You need to chill out - There's good and bad in every group, I can assure you there are cultures in some countries doing it alot tougher than you are

I don't know what you're trying to gain by bringing your cynical views in this thread?


+1
We live in one of the best country's in the world and some people still aren't happy.

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby human909 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:19 am

martinjs wrote:Here in Leeton I don't see all that many cyclist but a high percentage of them don't seem to believe in the rules, and I don't mean pushing the limits but things like riding on the wrong side of the road, crossing any old where with out looking, riding on the foot path and such like. :cry:


People are often more clever than you give them credit for. While rules exist there are clearly many times where they really aren't necessary to follow. Pedestrians break rules more often again. How many people both with pedestrian lights on an quiet and empty road. How many ignore them in the middle of the CBD.

In numerous cases it just makes sense. I'm more than happy to swallow my pride jump on the footpath when I face long steep uphills on busy double lane roads. (Double lanes actually makes it more dangerous due to people changing into left to avoid right turners.) I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.
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No wonder we have a bad name

Postby sogood » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:21 am

human909 wrote:...I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.

But willing to risk the lives of others?
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby human909 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:28 am

sogood wrote:
human909 wrote:...I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.

But willing to risk the lives of others?


No. I don't think moving along a footpath at 10kph is a great risk to the lives of others.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Wayfarer » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:12 pm

CrazyVictorian wrote:Lol! What? You need to chill out - There's good and bad in every group, I can assure you there are cultures in some countries doing it alot tougher than you are

I don't know what you're trying to gain by bringing your cynical views in this thread?

wut im not mad, just using big words to sound awesome. I know what you mean, but what i'm saying is everytime someone nearly gets killed by a SUV driver they say nuttin, then almost killed by a sports car driver, they say nothing. Then a ute driver decides he's too tired to signal and almost takes out the guy again, and he says nothing. Then a cyclist jumps a red light, and suddenly we're all evil guys who always break the law.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby martinjs » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:08 pm

human909 wrote:
martinjs wrote:Here in Leeton I don't see all that many cyclist but a high percentage of them don't seem to believe in the rules, and I don't mean pushing the limits but things like riding on the wrong side of the road, crossing any old where with out looking, riding on the foot path and such like. :cry:


People are often more clever than you give them credit for. While rules exist there are clearly many times where they really aren't necessary to follow. Pedestrians break rules more often again. How many people both with pedestrian lights on an quiet and empty road. How many ignore them in the middle of the CBD.

In numerous cases it just makes sense. I'm more than happy to swallow my pride jump on the footpath when I face long steep uphills on busy double lane roads. (Double lanes actually makes it more dangerous due to people changing into left to avoid right turners.) I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.


No arguments on certain roads in large busy cities, I used to do it of a 1/2k stretch on the Hume Highway in Cambelfeild when I commuted to work at night. No pedestrians and lot's of Double B's and Semi's heading towards Sydney. This was before the Northern Suburbs Bypass was complete.

That was the ONLY time while cycling around Melbourne and commuting to work over a 3 year period I ever felt the need to ride on the Footpaths as I like to ride fast and that doesn't mix to well with pedestrians and cars coming out of drives.

To put it in perspective I'm living in a small country town of only 10,000 people. Other than when riding with the kids there is NO need to ride on Footpaths. :(

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby martinjs » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:13 pm

Wayfarer wrote:wut im not mad, just using big words to sound awesome. I know what you mean, but what i'm saying is everytime someone nearly gets killed by a SUV driver they say nuttin, then almost killed by a sports car driver, they say nothing. Then a ute driver decides he's too tired to signal and almost takes out the guy again, and he says nothing. Then a cyclist jumps a red light, and suddenly we're all evil guys who always break the law.


I've said it before and I'll say it again, "two wrongs don't make a right" It not right when pedestrians and car drivers break the rules and it's not right when cyclist break the rules.
You can't JUSTIFY cyclist breaking the rules by saying "but what they do is worse"
That's just crazy talk.

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby human909 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:37 pm

martinjs wrote:
human909 wrote:
martinjs wrote:Here in Leeton I don't see all that many cyclist but a high percentage of them don't seem to believe in the rules, and I don't mean pushing the limits but things like riding on the wrong side of the road, crossing any old where with out looking, riding on the foot path and such like. :cry:


People are often more clever than you give them credit for. While rules exist there are clearly many times where they really aren't necessary to follow. Pedestrians break rules more often again. How many people both with pedestrian lights on an quiet and empty road. How many ignore them in the middle of the CBD.

In numerous cases it just makes sense. I'm more than happy to swallow my pride jump on the footpath when I face long steep uphills on busy double lane roads. (Double lanes actually makes it more dangerous due to people changing into left to avoid right turners.) I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.


No arguments on certain roads in large busy cities, I used to do it of a 1/2k stretch on the Hume Highway in Cambelfeild when I commuted to work at night. No pedestrians and lot's of Double B's and Semi's heading towards Sydney. This was before the Northern Suburbs Bypass was complete.

That was the ONLY time while cycling around Melbourne and commuting to work over a 3 year period I ever felt the need to ride on the Footpaths as I like to ride fast and that doesn't mix to well with pedestrians and cars coming out of drives.

To put it in perspective I'm living in a small country town of only 10,000 people. Other than when riding with the kids there is NO need to ride on Footpaths. :(

Martin

:D Fair enough.

Most of the time I am on the roads. I just got home from the other side of town. Very pleasant ride all the way home, all major roads, few cars, all of them polite. :D
Averaged 25kph with lots of hills and red lights so i'm happy for a commute. :D
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Wayfarer » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:05 pm

martinjs wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:wut im not mad, just using big words to sound awesome. I know what you mean, but what i'm saying is everytime someone nearly gets killed by a SUV driver they say nuttin, then almost killed by a sports car driver, they say nothing. Then a ute driver decides he's too tired to signal and almost takes out the guy again, and he says nothing. Then a cyclist jumps a red light, and suddenly we're all evil guys who always break the law.


I've said it before and I'll say it again, "two wrongs don't make a right" It not right when pedestrians and car drivers break the rules and it's not right when cyclist break the rules.
You can't JUSTIFY cyclist breaking the rules by saying "but what they do is worse"
That's just crazy talk.

Martin

I wasnt. For tyhe record, I always do my best to uphold the rules of the road, including signaling both ways, even when entering a driveway on an empty road. What i was simply pointing out is the double standard that goes through the minds of drivers who purposefully choose to pick on minorities, regardless of how bad their own poop smells.
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No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Comedian » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:50 pm

In QLD it's legal to ride on the footpath.

Things have to be grim for me to do it but it's nice to have the option.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby BigPete » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:22 am

sogood wrote:
human909 wrote:...I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.

But willing to risk the lives of others?


Some rules are made to be broken.
I would think there is a greater chance of someone being killed by riding on roads in dangerous conditions than a cyclist riding on a footpath. Queensland & the ACT believe it is okay to ride on footpaths.
Another rule that about 99% of cyclists seem to break is by riding their bikes on pedestrian crossing, when they are supposed to walk the bikes across. Certainly walking in bike shoes, across six lanes when there are no pedestrians around sounds like a stupid idea to me.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby Chanboy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:34 am

Police car (two officers inside) waiting at the set of lights going uphill, intersection of King St and Kent St Sydney.

About 6 or 7 cyclists go through the red bicycle light on both Kent Street and King Street. Police men watch and do nothing, simply drive off when their lights turn green.

Sure, I expect they probably have something more important to do...
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby zero » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:25 am

Chanboy wrote:Police car (two officers inside) waiting at the set of lights going uphill, intersection of King St and Kent St Sydney.

About 6 or 7 cyclists go through the red bicycle light on both Kent Street and King Street. Police men watch and do nothing, simply drive off when their lights turn green.

Sure, I expect they probably have something more important to do...


I think that intersection exists in the uneasy twilight zone of being effectively unworkable for people that would like to cycle it legally, therefore pretty much all rule breaches are probably going to be ignored unless they cause an accident. Police located in one position in a car during daylight hours, may not be able to see all relevant cross traffic and cycle lights to even determine whether every cycle movement was legal or not, nor would they necessarily be looking at the lights when the cyclist entered the intersection.

When trying to stick to the rules, I've not sure I've actually managed to turn from King onto Kent without a technical rule breach during the day.

Its common for me to make 2 or 3 "technical" breaches in the one turn.

(a) move into the intersection without a clear exit (because the bicycle light cycle is only 4 or so seconds - and if I don't move right away, I'll be behind the stop line still when it returns to red) - and there will be pedestrians blocking my exit when I start into the intersection.
(b) return to motion when the cycle light is red (because the cycle light is only 4 seconds or so, and the pedestrians are unlikely to clear in that time) - technically if caught in an intersection, you aren't supposed to restart - particularly if you aren't blocking cross traffic.
(c) fail to give way to a pedestrian - who still after all has a green man (because the pedestrian cycle is much longer than the bicycle cycle).
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby martinjs » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:00 pm

BigPete wrote:
sogood wrote:
human909 wrote:...I'm not going to risk my life simply because of a rule.

But willing to risk the lives of others?


Some rules are made to be broken.
I would think there is a greater chance of someone being killed by riding on roads in dangerous conditions than a cyclist riding on a footpath. Queensland & the ACT believe it is okay to ride on footpaths.
Another rule that about 99% of cyclists seem to break is by riding their bikes on pedestrian crossing, when they are supposed to walk the bikes across. Certainly walking in bike shoes, across six lanes when there are no pedestrians around sounds like a stupid idea to me.


Well it is a pedestrian crossing, good example of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You either want to be treated equally on the road or not. Walking across a pedestrian crossing demonstrates to car drivers you are trying to do the right thing, justifying riding across is trying to make the rules to suit your self which is where cyclists get a bad name.

In my humble option at least, I would walk across every time and to make it easier I got MTB shoes so I don't have to go CLUNK CLUNK. Works well. 8)

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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby m@ » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:49 pm

martinjs wrote:Well it is a pedestrian crossing, good example of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You either want to be treated equally on the road or not. Walking across a pedestrian crossing demonstrates to car drivers you are trying to do the right thing, justifying riding across is trying to make the rules to suit your self which is where cyclists get a bad name.

In my humble option at least, I would walk across every time and to make it easier I got MTB shoes so I don't have to go CLUNK CLUNK. Works well. 8)

Martin

Sounds good in theory, but around here at least many divers get aggro if you dismount and walk across because it holds them up for longer - though of course others will be annoyed if you ride across even if it doesn't affect them at all. Classic catch-22. My solution is generally to stop a few metres back from the crossing and wait for a gap in traffic before crossing, but this wouldn't be practical for busy roads.
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Re: No wonder we have a bad name

Postby martinjs » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:55 pm

I know I live in the sticks, but I did live in Melbourne for longer than I have lived here and rode about 4 years of that time and my riding habits and the way I treat traffic hasn't changed.
Ok I go a bit slower now :oops: but that's more to do with what I want out of cycling.

I just really believe that we can't go around winging about motorist breaking the law when we do the same. 2 wrongs still don't make a right in my humble opinion. :)

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