In an accident? You need to know this.

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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:36 pm

Reading your story makes me glad I sold my Suzuki SV.

I know my wife was happy the day it went. :)

One license disqualification for excessive speed was enough. Looking back i just shudder thinking about all the close calls I've had on motorbikes as a result of my and other people's actions. I should of died numerous times but luckily never came off.

I seriously don't miss it. I would rather ride my pushie up Mt Mee or Glorious than ride another moto.
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by BNA » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:45 pm

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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby jules21 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:45 pm

all the best Ox. it's easy to feel sorry for yourself in those situations and i wouldn't blame you one bit, but from where i'm sitting, i'm in awe of your strength. no one could go through all of that and be unaffected. keep fighting mate and stay on the rehab path - it is/will be worth it! keep us updated too. it's strangely inspiring to read about how you cope with all that. just keep it up, you're slowly winning.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby jdawsoner » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:33 pm

I recently got in a small accident and my mistake was not calling the cops. This was my first time , so I did not know what to do, although I think the driver was at fault. I went searching online and before finding this post, got some clues from this article : What to do if you are on a bike and got hit by a car . Has some good tips , such as :
"If you said to a witness “I didn’t see the car before it hit me” the insurance company hears “I wasn’t paying attention”. If you said “the car must have moved into my lane to hit me” the insurance company hears “ I wasn’t in my lane when the car hit me”."
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby halfmanhalfbike » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:49 am

jdawsoner wrote:I recently got in a small accident and my mistake was not calling the cops. This was my first time , so I did not know what to do, although I think the driver was at fault. I went searching online and before finding this post, got some clues from this article : What to do if you are on a bike and got hit by a car . Has some good tips , such as :
"If you said to a witness “I didn’t see the car before it hit me” the insurance company hears “I wasn’t paying attention”. If you said “the car must have moved into my lane to hit me” the insurance company hears “ I wasn’t in my lane when the car hit me”."


so basically keep your mouth shut and don't say a thing...

I was told to never apologise regardless of what happened (because it will appear as if you have accepted responsibility)
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:27 am

Final update for this thread from me on the original incident from September 2011.

The process for settlement goes something like this in Qld. The Insurer and I must have an informal settlement conference which occurred if I recall in December last year. That was insulting, they tried to apportion blame 50% to me initially, eventually dropping to 20% assigned blame. My barrister basically told them to stick it.

After lots of argy bargy and the insurer contacting just about every medical professional I have been in contact with over the last 33 months, they sent their conclusions to my lawyer who as usual sent them to me. On this note, make sure you have a good doctor/GP on your side, everything they record could potentially be provided to an insurer. My GP is sensible and studiously records only what she thinks is relevant and supportive to my situation. Since the informal conference I have also consulted with the Pain Management Specialists at RBWH and that has been a revelation in sorting out lots of pain issues. The flipside is that is all provided to the insurer as well. So be careful what you say and to whom you say it. The conclusions, still 20% blame and an insulting offer.

This leads to a formal compulsory settlement conference, this is basically the last step before you can go to trial. You have to do it, otherwise you are basically forbidden from going to trial until you have done it. More discussions, more insults and lots of haggling and now its over compensation $$ amounts and associated costs. Needless to say the discussions closed down with no acceptance of offers or costs. However a specific offer was left open to COB last Thursday. Usually however those offers and counter offers must remain open for 14 days at which time they expire and the matter can go to trial. In my case there were some offers and counter offers with COB acceptance over three days.

Before I give you the conclusion, I will explain the final part of the process. At the end of the formal compulsory conference process, each side must place their final damages claim into a single envelope which is sealed and neither party gets to see the others amount. This envelope is opened by the judge at the conclusion of the trial if a pre end of trial agreement is not reached by the parties. The judge then uses these amounts to determine how he may award the costs of each party. For example if the insurers secret offer is above our offer, the judge may feel inclined to award costs against the insurer and vice versa if the offer amounts are alternated. As my barrister explained, its part of the gaming process. That explanation is simplistic and it does get more complex depending on how the offer/counter offer process unfolds. Its basically a poker game off sorts.

So what finally happened? I settled in the end for one basic reason. The final counter offer was very close to what I was told from the outset would be a reasonable settlement. Though costs were still not agreed, my lawyer agreed to a fee cap outside the original agreement if the "assessed" costs were different to what they believed they would be. So that meant for me I had a known minimum settlement figure even if costs varied slightly. To go to trial would be a "roll of the dice" in that I may get more, I may get less. A trial would offer the opportunity to introduce more evidence than the insurer was willing to consider during the pre-trial process which could potentially upside the settlement, but by how much was always a very unknown quantity. A trial would occupy a further 3 weeks minimum of my time (all unpaid) with medical reports and assessments, pre-trial preparations and the the trial itself. A trial would cost many tens of thousands of $$$ all of which comes out of the settlement plus potentially the insurers costs if costs are awarded against me. They are not capped under my fee agreement. Mostly though, trials are very stressful and I just wanted to move on with my life. I have a new job and new career that I want to concentrate my efforts on without distraction.

As for my second accident, coincidentally I was also given a full medical clearance for that accident this week as well, A good week for me all round.

Ride safe everyone.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby cp123 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:24 am

is this case you're arguing the one where Mr Tosspot ran you over from behind - and you have the video evidence to show him ranting and raving and honking and gesticulating at you that you were going to keep for "when the time came?" Did the time ever come? did he poop his pants at seeing that? I guess that might be useful in upping the offer if you have got it all on film?


Oh to have been a fly on the wall when that happened.



its sad that you've had to put up with 3 years of crap through just for simply just being out on a bike.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:56 am

cp123 wrote:is this case you're arguing the one where Mr Tosspot ran you over from behind - and you have the video evidence to show him ranting and raving and honking and gesticulating at you that you were going to keep for "when the time came?" Did the time ever come? did he poop his pants at seeing that? I guess that might be useful in upping the offer if you have got it all on film?


Oh to have been a fly on the wall when that happened.



its sad that you've had to put up with 3 years of crap through just for simply just being out on a bike.
The video did dramatically alter the disposition of the insurer. My lawyer said the response was priceless, in that it took all the wind out of their sails. Particularly the claims about what actually happened versus what the driver and witness claimed happened.

I will never ride a bike on the road again for many reasons, even though presumably it is now safer with the mandatory passing laws currently in place in Qld. I am trying to get back on the bike (so to speak) as a method of commuting since my current employment is in my own suburb and I have separated bike paths the whole way. I will continue to DVR the rides for my own protection.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby cp123 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:10 pm

that's sad ox - but even the paths is better than nothing.



now - are you able to (or willing to) share that piece of absolute gold with us? :twisted:
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby find_bruce » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:20 pm

Hey Oxford, thanks for stopping by. Good to hear your account of the process that hopefully most of us won't become familiar with.

I am glad to hear you got a settlement you can live with & more importantly that things appear to be working out for you better than I had feared. Are you riding a conventional bike or have you had to take some other approach ?

Cheers

Bruce
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby skull » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:51 pm

Thanks for responding ox.

You still riding at all now?

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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:43 pm

I have decided to recommence riding, only to work and back for now. I bought one of these bikes:

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Just wanted something to speed up the commute of 3.2kms (currently walking it), its all bike paths or foot paths to work and this bike makes it very pleasant and comfortable.

Once I am fitter as a rider I may consider MTBing again since we bought the house we have because of its location to the forest. I have a friend who will loan me his MTB for a period of time to see how I go. The main issue will be whether MTB stirs up the back injury. If it does then I will discontinue with no $$$ outlay. If I am able to MTB, then I will spend a little of my compensation buying a nice simple but robust full susser 29er to maximise comfort. I have no intention of ever racing or doing full day rides again, just want something so I can potentially go for a 2 hour social blast in the forest in comfort.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:26 pm

cp123 wrote:.....

now - are you able to (or willing to) share that piece of absolute gold with us? :twisted:
I am able to share it, but not willing to. Not for any other reason than I just cannot watch it or even think that it would offer anything of value to anyone. I have only ever viewed it twice myself (no one else in the family wants to see it). Once to see what happened, the second time to edit the footage down to the section needed. After that I sent it to my lawyer and have never even had the desire to ever view it again. :(
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Xplora » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:35 am

Glad to hear you got a positive resolution to it, Ox, but very sad to hear you won't be on the road anymore.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby skull » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:39 am

Glad to see you are getting back onto a bike.

Best wishes.

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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:27 pm

After thinking about it for some time, I decided to load up the video. Not for any other reason than if it does help someone, then that is a positive thing. I know there are going to be critics and detractors, that's why comments on the video are disabled. I'm not really interested in explaining the contents, however I may respond to polite queries. Suffice to say much of the arguing in the legal side of things was over lane positioning, I'll leave that to others to debate, I am not going to feel as though I have to defend myself other than to say where this occurred it is commonplace for cyclists to be left hooked. The other issue will be the speed at which the car appears to approach at impact. The only explanation for that is that the driver was on their horn persistently distracting me and I was looking over my shoulder at her, being on a fixie I can only conclude that being distracted my cadence was interrupted and I slowed measurably (not helped by my body being turned to the right). Accusations by the other side that I was stopped or slowed rapidly by braking are nonsense as my right hand was not on the bars (by the admission of the driver) and hence unable to operate the only brake on the bike other than the fixed drivetrain and the rear wheel is clearly turning.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby queequeg » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:34 pm

That is shocking footage. I seriously can't believe there would be much legal wrangling over lane position.

You were in the lane, right where you were entitled to be, and that driver was just an utter moron.

I sincerely hope that out of the extensive legal process the driver eventually got what was coming to them. I'll leave it at that. Thankyou for sharing that as I know it has been a long and painful recovery for you.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Xplora » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:26 pm

Hmmm. I don't have much to say except I understand why you've decided to restrict your activity on the bike, and that every religion in the world is based on the idea that justice will be done. As a Christian, that means fire and brimstone for the driver. A curse upon them.

I'm really interested to know where this situation was in any way your fault. We have the traditional assumptions that the vehicle at the rear is responsible always because you can't do anything to slow them down.

Godspeed young man. I can only shake my head and hope you really stuck it up them.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:52 am

Much of the "discussion" between the barristers that I was privy to was debating the relative merits of various sections of the traffic regulations and their interpretations. The other side's barrister making personal observations of me being a "selfish" road user, I was obstructing traffic and questioning why I wasn't using the shoulder of the road more. My barrister (also a cyclist who lives in the area of the incident) with my prior input outlining that my positioning was based on previous experiences of being left hooked or left/right crossed and seeing cyclists left hooked or left/right crossed with video from the location to back up that "state of mind" if required. What solidified my legal position was my barristers observation that I was unwavering in my reasoning and my thorough understanding of my obligations as a road user to myself and other road users.

Its also important that if you have any issues with any part of your commute or feel there are any danger black spots on your commute that you keep historical footage. My YouTube channel only contains the absolute worst of my experiences and particularly road users who have been reported to various authorities. Personally I retain even more footage on my home server that can be used as evidence to establish state of mind. The footage is all cataloged by date and time period as you can see from my footage of this incident.

In the end we can argue on these forums back and forth about our own personal interpretations of the road rules. The real test is if you have the conviction to stand behind those beliefs and can back up those convictions with solid reasoning and evidence in a court of law.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby trailgumby » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:37 am

Dear God. They hit you deliberately.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby biker jk » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:37 am

I'm amazed that there was any dispute as to who was at fault. :shock: The motorist deliberately rammed you. They clearly could have braked to avoid a collision. A custodial sentence is appropriate in this circumstance.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Oxford » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:01 am

The police were unaware of the video footage. As a result the charges were for traffic violations only. Following the impact and my inability to move, I was fortunate enough to have another cyclist stop who when I told him of the cameras, made sure to get all three. The helmet DVR was still attached as was the handlebar, however the rear DVR broke free and he retrieved it for me from the road side. I made sure to remove all three plus my GPS and place them inside my bag to preserve them from tampering as I quite honestly at the time had no faith in the QPS to do their job (it was their attitudes that lead me down the path to DVR recording in the first place). This was evidenced by the fact that when I was approached by them while laying in hospital a few hours later they were accusing me of all sorts of things based on the driver and witness accounts. I didn't waste my time pursuing anything with the QPS as I had no faith in their ability to critically assess the situation. I still have traffic violations that were recorded against the driver which would help a civil claim, so I still have the option of going after the driver if I wish. I do have some ideas about how I am going to approach action against the driver which may or may not involve monetary penalties.

Ultimately I would settle for no money compensation if the driver surrendered her license for a 30 month period, roughly the mount of time it has taken me to get my life back on track (though not 100%). Basically forcing her to seek alternative means of transport such as maybe a bicycle. Well at least I can daydream that that would happen.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby feral grasshopper » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:24 am

Oxford wrote:In the end we can argue on these forums back and forth about our own personal interpretations of the road rules. The real test is if you have the conviction to stand behind those beliefs and can back up those convictions with solid reasoning and evidence in a court of law.



RESPECT. Kudos +++++
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby queequeg » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:52 am

Oxford wrote:The police were unaware of the video footage. As a result the charges were for traffic violations only.


Did the police ever become aware of the video footage? What I saw on that footage was not an accident. It was a deliberate attempt at running you off the road, and whilst I try to place faith in humanity and say that the poor skill of the driver is why they ultimately hit you, I think there needs to be an attitude test when getting a licence. That driver clearly failed that test.
I think you are generous in only wanting a 30 month suspension. I think drivers like that should be deemed unfit for driving and be denied a licence for life.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby jules21 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:09 am

Ox - so glad to hear you're back on the bike and have moved on. i only have respect for you in how you've handled all of this.

can i make a suggestion though - more for the 'benefit' of others who (i dare to think) may ever end up in a similar situation, in the future? i would have pushed for more serious charges. everything i've learned/read about dealing with the police - including your case, but others and discussions with a mate of mine who is a cop - is that you need to push hard to get them to take proper action.

for that driving, i would argue it's clearly criminal. my limited understanding of the law is that the cops can't upgrade charges (i think), but in your case - i would have thought/hoped that adding new, more serious charges - i.e. dangerous driving would remain an option for them. this could have - if perhaps unlikely in the Australian wild west approach to cycling justice - resulted in jail time for the driver.
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Re: In an accident? You need to know this.

Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:22 pm

I would be putting it to the police that the nature of our justice system requires the police and the courts to test the evidence and punish behaviour that conflicts with the Acts as they are written at the time - for the sole reason that your suffering was caused by someone who has deliberately taken the right to decide how the road is used around them into their own hands, and you might decide to take justice into your own hands. I think we've all seen enough movies and articles about the NSA and the underworld to understand that motivated individuals can find people and do as they choose with them.

Ask the police to cross the road while you rev the car and move towards them. Are they intimidated? Of course. They would draw a gun given the chance. You didn't have such power, ox, and you've lost years because of it. I would certainly not accept loss of licence - it's not hard to get behind the key and turn the key without one. Jail time with significant charges is the only way forward. Otherwise the police would accept you can hospitalise the other driver by ramming them with a truck, threatening them with a knife, all manner of nasties. You didn't provoke anything warranting hospitalisation. The police are responsible for justice. Push it to make it happen.
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