Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Queestce » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:36 am

I think we all just need some fake-super-loud exhaust pipes. Then you can look cool and be noticed...

My motorcycling kit is predominately black leather, grey denim, and a black helmet - but my Termignoni's turn more heads than fluro. Might not be so good sounding like a Ducati as you approach someone on the bikeway though :lol:

I like Wombat's whistling aerofoil door idea. Maybe we make the aerofoils even bigger, give the cars a big rear fan, and we can get them airborne and ignore the problem altogether?...
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby GraemeL » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:05 am

zero wrote:TThe stripes are the only effective bit at night, and obviously if there is no reflectable light source, then you are mostly down to your light set.


We are talking about riding in traffic, therefore there will be car headlights and usually street lights.

When travelling behind the wife, she was quite easily seen from a fare distance. The green does stand out, maybe not as much as daylight, but it is certainly better than dark colours and it certainly doesn't hurt to wear them.

The vests have rather large reflective strips on them which work extremely well, she lit up like a xmas tree in front of car headlights.
I did have some video footage, but it has been deleted, I will try and get some footage in the next few days.


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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:31 am

GraemeL wrote:The vests have rather large reflective strips on them which work extremely well, she lit up like a xmas tree in front of car headlights.

As I said - reflective materials yes, fluoro not so good.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby GraemeL » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:41 am

il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:The vests have rather large reflective strips on them which work extremely well, she lit up like a xmas tree in front of car headlights.

As I said - reflective materials yes, fluoro not so good.


Yes but having bright green or orange at night does help with viability, rather than black or dark colours.
The point is, you want to try and stand out and be seen.

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby CommuRider » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:50 am

il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:The vests have rather large reflective strips on them which work extremely well, she lit up like a xmas tree in front of car headlights.

As I said - reflective materials yes, fluoro not so good.


Reminds me of a runner - all in black - and the only way I knew he was a moving object was a tiny bit of reflective strip at the bottom of his shoes.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:52 am

Image

...and right back to the start. Yes, conspicuity is very important, but white stands out better than any fluoro colours on this score.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby jet-ski » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:57 am

Hm, but then we get to the inconvenience again!!! what do you do with the flouro vest after you arrive at the pub or theatre or cinema or exhibition?? (I have ridden to all these things in the last three weeks) It's not socially acceptable to keep wearing flouro vests in these situations.... so if you had to wear flouro to ride, then you probably wouldn't ride. It's I guess you could lock it to your bike like you can with your helmet and risk it being knicked by some bogan who needs it for work or a rave ? :roll:

If you want to be seen, don't ride in the gutter. It really is as simple as that.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Oxford » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:10 pm

both times I've been hit by cars I was wearing black jersey tops. that's why I got hit, because my hi-vis invisible cloak was see through so all drivers could (not) see was me in black. seriously both times I was hit I had more flashing lights and hi-vis than luna park. is it too much to ask that road users just look and I mean really look, not pretend look? why do we have hi-vis at work sites? because workers have pretend looks and also place themselves in dangerous situations. my wife is dealing with a workplace accident now where a fork lift backed into a stationary parked unoccupied vehicle in a safe zone. the driver of the forklift is trying to blame the ute for where it was parked. if he had really looked (not a pretend look) he would have clearly seen the vehicle and not hit it. no amount of hi-vis will cure people not looking.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Queestce » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:18 pm

Oxford wrote:both times I've been hit by cars I was wearing black jersey tops. that's why I got hit, because my hi-vis invisible cloak was see through so all drivers could (not) see was me in black. seriously both times I was hit I had more flashing lights and hi-vis than luna park. is it too much to ask that road users just look and I mean really look, not pretend look? why do we have hi-vis at work sites? because workers have pretend looks and also place themselves in dangerous situations. my wife is dealing with a workplace accident now where a fork lift backed into a stationary parked unoccupied vehicle in a safe zone. the driver of the forklift is trying to blame the ute for where it was parked. if he had really looked (not a pretend look) he would have clearly seen the vehicle and not hit it. no amount of hi-vis will cure people not looking.


Yep, it will just make people think they don't need to look because hey, it's hi-vis right, YOU WILL ALWAYS SEE IT... The only way to truly avoid being a statistic is to ride in a manner which negates the fact that most motorists are about as situationally aware as a brick, and assume that every single one of them has not seen you. Nothing against hi-vis, paint yourself bright orange for all I care, but the positive visual effects become null and void the second someone assumes they are actually working and rides as such.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby ausrandoman » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:48 pm

I find that riding naked is safer than wearing bright colours. Whenever I ride naked, everyone gives me a VERY wide berth.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby zero » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:49 pm

jet-ski wrote:Hm, but then we get to the inconvenience again!!! what do you do with the flouro vest after you arrive at the pub or theatre or cinema or exhibition?? (I have ridden to all these things in the last three weeks) It's not socially acceptable to keep wearing flouro vests in these situations.... so if you had to wear flouro to ride, then you probably wouldn't ride. It's I guess you could lock it to your bike like you can with your helmet and risk it being knicked by some bogan who needs it for work or a rave ? :roll:

If you want to be seen, don't ride in the gutter. It really is as simple as that.


If I really can't be seen with it, I stick the d-lock through an armhole as I lock the bike. Same goes for my helmet, as people don't usually cut helmet straps on ancient helmets.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby ausrandoman » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:16 pm

Number of motorists who will change their behaviour as a result of this discussion: exactly zero.

Number of cyclists who will change their behaviour as a result of this discussion: approximately zero.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby jet-ski » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:19 pm

ausrandoman is probably right, but isn't that the same with most topics? arguing just gives people an opportunity to reinforce their own positions much of the time.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:24 pm

jet-ski wrote:ausrandoman is probably right, but isn't that the same with most topics? arguing just gives people an opportunity to reinforce their own positions much of the time.

You're entitled to your opinion I guess
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby jet-ski » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:30 pm

As is everyone, we live in a free country! Of course if we had separated cycling infrastructure on high-speed, high-traffic routes then there would be no need for this discussion about high vis 8)
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby BarryTas » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:42 pm

there is a reason that i dont wear black while riding
when do we stop for coffee???

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Ozkaban » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:08 pm

I wont ride with dark coloured clothing. When wearing jerseys, they are either solid red or solid white. If commuting, I have a hi-vis waterproof backpack cover that I use which is both fluro yellow and with reflective patchwork (like a police stripe). I also have blinky lights front and rear. I do worry that the rear light isn't that effective though. I find that I have fewer incidents of people not seeing me (like pedestrians walking out in front of me, etc) when set up like this. Couldn't care less how it looks.

I think that when a car hits something, the biggest excuse is 'I just didn't see it', be it a pedestrian, cyclist, other car, bus or building. Drivers just don't look for stuff, so the more I can do to stand out the better. Of course, this also goes with rider behaviour, etc, but I have found a marked difference between the number of times I have to avoid something when I've got all the hi visibility lights, etc on and when I don't.

Oh, as for the big vests not being very rider friendly, there are a number of running ones that I've found great. I bought my wife a Brooks Nightlife vest for when she does night walks and it combines fluro with reflective and it's mostly mesh so it doesn't feel like a slab of plastic when riding.

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:14 pm

First of all, I find the thread title offensive.
Being injured is never a choice. :evil:


whichway wrote:I work in the construction industry.
You can't go on any worksite (or factory or mine etc) without high vis work wear.
Yet very few cyclists wear high vis clothing.


So you are comparing working on a construction site to cycling :shock:
Why ?

whichway wrote:If you ride in traffic, then for most of us, that is the riskiest thing we do.


Nope it is not.


whichway wrote:You can't go on any worksite (or factory or mine etc) without high vis work wear.


The reason for this is not safety. (as you would think)
It is more about liability in case of an accident.
As the builder is responsible for the whole site, and everything that happens there, but can't control every single company that is on site, as there are many.
So the hi-vis thing places the responsibility to the individual, taking away the liability from the shoulders of the builder.
(or something similair along those lines..)

There is a lot of 'push' for wearing hi-vis on site, but have you ever wondered/thought/done research about if it really works ?
Or do you just assume it works ? (I don't assume it works..)
Wearing hi-vis does not make you visible to 'idiots', as they are colourblind.
Wearing hi-vis does not prevent you from having an accident either.
And if everyone wears it, hi-vis is not as effective as you might think..

Hi-vis is overrated, and it don't believe it actually does anything for safety onsite.

And the main thing with safety for cycling is not that people don't see you, but it is becasue how motorists interact with cyclist while on the road.
The choice of clothing is irrelevant to this interaction.
On my commute I wear hivis, not because I want to but because I have to wear it at work, but cycling at hi-vis does not stop cars from hitting me.
For me it is very simply : wearing hi-vis does not make cycling safer.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby toholio » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:29 pm

Firstly, the title of this thread is really abysmal. The choice isn't to be injured because that is not a choice. For most people the choice would be to not ride at all. Cycling will never be normalized if we keep making out people who don't want to look like dorks feel shunned. And yes, I agree that this shouldn't make people feel like dorks but it does.

Secondly, the number one thing we can do to help make cycling safer is get as many people to start riding as possible. Fear mongering and blowing the risks out of proportion does more harm to cycling than wearing high vis could ever hope to undo. I know this sort of thing is well intentioned but it has the exact opposite effect to what we all want.

People not riding is a bigger problem than people not wearing high vis when they ride.

The more people there are doing normal things, in normal clothes on bicycles the closer we are to cycling being considered normal again. Australia is particularly backward in this regard and fear mongering threads like this do not help.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby wombatK » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:34 pm

Is it really one or the other ?

For the spring cycle this year, I talked my company into sponsoring a company jersey. The design had to be safety conscious,
and company branded. It would be used by urban and rural cyclists.

Without doing any in-depth research into what was the definition of hi-vis actually is (i.e. what specific shades of
flourescent green or orange it has to be), we thought a bright yellow based design with
some white-relief for night-time visibility would strike a good balance on the hi-vis v's looks cool scale ... Here's the result
on 5 of our 30 riders...
Image
Most people who see the jersey think it looks pretty cool, and we got numerous compliments from other riders on the day.

Nevertheless, the yellow in the jersey is a close match for the yellow in our low-flammability hi-vis company PPE work-wear.

The jersey design was very effective in keeping track of where our team riders were as we spread out a bit. And very easy to spot
our riders when browsing through the Epsom rd studio thumbnails.

There were other yellow and bright colored designs which stood out similarly. You can be highly visible without the drab
building-site clothing colours.

Makes me wonder why someone has not been more imaginative and creative with what constitutes hi-vis for PPE.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby GraemeL » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:05 pm

If a high vis vest helps to make you stand out more then that's is a good thing. This crap about it being the norm and blending in to a point where drivers fail to notice it, is crap.
We might as well say that all lights blend in and go unnoticed, after all there are thousands of them or popular colours all blend in and go unnoticed.
If it works all well and good If it makes the user feel a little more secure it's all good. Just because a person chooses to wear high vis doesn't mean they automatically become idiots on the bike because they believe that everyone can see them. I take just as much care as I would if I didn't wear it.

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:49 pm

I thought I'd stumbled onto Today Tonight online for a minute...

For mine, the best way to be seen is to be in the place where people are looking.

From my experience in public transport (rail safety), the mandatory wearing of hivis makes no difference to the sensible and instills a false sense of security to the rest.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:00 pm

Image Image Image Image Image
Image
Image
...industrial? I think not, and neither do they. You can make hi-vis look good. Get with the 90's people 8)
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby ausrandoman » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:02 pm

damhooligan wrote: wearing hi-vis does not make cycling safer.


To my surprise, I found this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12076481 (See also http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/revstruc.htm ) Money quote: "We found no trials assessing the effect of visibility aids on the occurrence of pedestrian and cyclist-motor vehicle collisions and injuries." This study is five years old: up to 2006, no-one has tested the epidemiology of hi-vis clothing and bicycle accidents.

The above review also says "Fluorescent materials in yellow, red and orange colours improve detection and recognition in the daytime." It would be very strange if improving the chances of being seen and recognised did not reduce the rate of accidents. Do you have access to more up-to-date information? I'd be very interested to read your evidence that high visibility clothing does not make cycling safer.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:26 pm

ausrandoman wrote:
damhooligan wrote: wearing hi-vis does not make cycling safer.


To my surprise, I found this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12076481 (See also http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/revstruc.htm ) Money quote: "We found no trials assessing the effect of visibility aids on the occurrence of pedestrian and cyclist-motor vehicle collisions and injuries." This study is five years old: up to 2006, no-one has tested the epidemiology of hi-vis clothing and bicycle accidents.

The above review also says "Fluorescent materials in yellow, red and orange colours improve detection and recognition in the daytime." It would be very strange if improving the chances of being seen and recognised did not reduce the rate of accidents. Do you have access to more up-to-date information? I'd be very interested to read your evidence that high visibility clothing does not make cycling safer.



Sentenses like that make me laugh, as it is not proven it works, but it would be very strange if it didn't . :?
Being seen is absolutely not enough to reduce accidents....
To reduce accidents you need to do a lot more then 'just being seen' .

Firstly, I don't believe it actually works.
One of the reasosn why is I am not convinced hivis actually works, as I have not seen studies, or other forms of data, proven that it does.
Saying it 'has to work' is not proof :!:
Would be happy to read some more info on if and how this is tested.
But lack of info of this does not make me think, it has to work.

Secondly , even if it did work, there is stil the other problem; motorists.
As this is based on my own experiences, wich I qualify as reality. 8)
Hivis clothing does not change motorists behaviour, they stil overtake with not enough room.
They stil cut you off.
They still beep you.
They stil.... , and so on...
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