Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby trailgumby » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:31 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:
jet-ski wrote:ausrandoman is probably right, but isn't that the same with most topics? arguing just gives people an opportunity to reinforce their own positions much of the time.

You're entitled to your opinion I guess

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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by BNA » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:36 pm

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:36 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Image

Is that you Dave?
Trucking that water about has sure given you a serious case of drivers arm there mate :wink:

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:39 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Image



What's that orange thing?
is that the price tag ?? :?

And why does the cyclist have to give the car 1 meter when overtaking :shock:
I'm confused...
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:42 pm

It's back to front you Spoon :lol:
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:44 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:It's back to front you Spoon :lol:



But that stil does not explain that orange smudge in her neck.. :shock:


And p.s., I like the back to front idea better... :mrgreen:
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby trailgumby » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:51 pm

This entire thread is fatally flawed.

It seems there is an assumption that I have any hope of being cool.

Never gonna happen... :lol:
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:54 pm

damhooligan wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:It's back to front you Spoon :lol:



But that stil does not explain that orange smudge in her neck.. :shock:


And p.s., I like the back to front idea better... :mrgreen:

It is the tag DH
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:00 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:
damhooligan wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:It's back to front you Spoon :lol:



But that stil does not explain that orange smudge in her neck.. :shock:


And p.s., I like the back to front idea better... :mrgreen:

It is the tag DH


A tag, like in facebook :shock:


(sorry, I promise that was the last one, for tonight...)
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:11 pm

*bangs head repeatedly on Coffee Table

No, not like FB
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby ausrandoman » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:13 pm

damhooligan wrote:
ausrandoman wrote:
damhooligan wrote: wearing hi-vis does not make cycling safer.


To my surprise, I found this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12076481 (See also http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/revstruc.htm ) Money quote: "We found no trials assessing the effect of visibility aids on the occurrence of pedestrian and cyclist-motor vehicle collisions and injuries." This study is five years old: up to 2006, no-one has tested the epidemiology of hi-vis clothing and bicycle accidents.

The above review also says "Fluorescent materials in yellow, red and orange colours improve detection and recognition in the daytime." It would be very strange if improving the chances of being seen and recognised did not reduce the rate of accidents. Do you have access to more up-to-date information? I'd be very interested to read your evidence that high visibility clothing does not make cycling safer.



Sentenses like that make me laugh, as it is not proven it works, but it would be very strange if it didn't . :?

What do you think would be effect of reduced visibility ? Have you never, as a cyclist, motorist, runner or in any other activity come close to bumping into something because you didn't notice it until too late?

damhooligan wrote:Being seen is absolutely not enough to reduce accidents....
To reduce accidents you need to do a lot more then 'just being seen' .

Agreed. What is the effect of being hard to see?


damhooligan wrote:Firstly, I don't believe it actually works.
One of the reasosn why is I am not convinced hivis actually works, as I have not seen studies, or other forms of data, proven that it does.
Saying it 'has to work' is not proof :!:
Would be happy to read some more info on if and how this is tested.
But lack of info of this does not make me think, it has to work.

I don't think it has to work. Risk compensation, as occurs in driving, skiing and sky-diving, might be a factor. See, for example, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8198 ... t=Abstract

damhooligan wrote:Secondly , even if it did work, there is stil the other problem; motorists.
As this is based on my own experiences, wich I qualify as reality. 8)
Hivis clothing does not change motorists behaviour, they stil overtake with not enough room.
They stil cut you off.
They still beep you.
They stil.... , and so on...

I wonder how many times a well-intentioned motorist has cut you off because they did not see you? I have come close to cutting off cyclists when I have been driving. My experience, both as a cyclist and as a driver, is that conspicuous clothing results in fewer near misses. Your experience is otherwise. This difference is one of many reasons why individual experience, while compelling to the individual, is a very poor guide to the big picture.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:35 pm

ausrandoman wrote:What do you think would be effect of reduced visibility ? Have you never, as a cyclist, motorist, runner or in any other activity come close to bumping into something because you didn't notice it until too late?


That is something completely different, hivis is intended to increase visibility.
Implying that not wearing hivis wil decrease visibility is nonsense.


ausrandoman wrote:I wonder how many times a well-intentioned motorist has cut you off because they did not see you? I have come close to cutting off cyclists when I have been driving. My experience, both as a cyclist and as a driver, is that conspicuous clothing results in fewer near misses. Your experience is otherwise. This difference is one of many reasons why individual experience, while compelling to the individual, is a very poor guide to the big picture.


Downside of personal opnion is emotions, and the effect that,' what you think you see is not what you actually see because you wanna believe you are wright' syndrome.
I am aware of that, but; the big picture is that cyclists are cut off.
A recent study has shown (no linky, sorry) that a high percentage of cycling accidents are from cyclist being cut off by motorist.
(based on video footage, and not hear say.)

The core thing about being cut off, that it is surprisingly enough done on porpouse,
meaning , I have been seen but they cut me off anyway. (classis : they overtake me, hit the brakes and turn left... )
Same with overtaking, and not being given enough room, thye know I am there, but yet ; not enough room is given.
Both of them are preventable, and presense of hivis is irrelevant, as I have been seen.

The problem is , there are not enough 'well-intentioned' drivers out there.
Hivis wil not change that.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:04 pm

Because I believe that cycling should be an everyday activity that is accessible to all I'm not a big fan of hi-vis.

In regular clear day time conditions I am not convinced that it will make a significant difference. The issue with most cycling collisions or near misses is the motorist not even looking or expecting cyclist. Not to mention motorists who see the cyclist but still wont give them space. In low visibility conditions more reflectors and lights the better. A reflective vest and moving ankle reflecties makes you much more visible. Nights when its raining I wear a very bright high vis rain jacket or vest with reflective stripes.

But are the risks so great that I need to wear a high vis evey ride? No. Nor do I believe I need to wear a helmet every ride.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby GraemeL » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:25 am

damhooligan wrote:
The core thing about being cut off, that it is surprisingly enough done on porpouse,
meaning , I have been seen but they cut me off anyway. (classis : they overtake me, hit the brakes and turn left... )
Same with overtaking, and not being given enough room, thye know I am there, but yet ; not enough room is given.
Both of them are preventable, and presense of hivis is irrelevant, as I have been seen.

The problem is , there are not enough 'well-intentioned' drivers out there.
Hivis wil not change that.


So what you are saying is that ALL drivers act like that? There are those drivers out there that don't give a rats and it wouldn't matter if you had a neon sign strapped to your back they will still cut you off.
What about the drivers that have seen a rider because of the high vis and haven't cut them off? Why is it that high vis works in bad weather and a lot of people use it , but they tend to think it's waste of time or it fails in bright sunshine? I would have thought there wasn't a difference in the effectivness.

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby whichway » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:25 am

Well there you go.

I never said or implied that:

You need to wear a high vis vest. There are lots of high vis jerseys that are pretty much the same to wear as any other jersey except for the colour
If you wear high vis you would be entirely safe or that you still wouldn't need to take care on the road. We can all be wiped out by someone who is not even looking at the road.
Made any comment about riding at night in high vis

In order to reinforce arguements, many spurious issues have been raised (eg what am I going to do with my high vis vest when I get to work).

I still haven't seen any arguement that says that high vis clothing is actually more dangerous than the alternative (particularly flouro yellow, flouro green or white), and if people want to beleive that high vis makes absolutely no difference to being seen, then that is up to them.

So apart from looking a bit uncool, I still can't see any reason not to wear high vis.

As one of the posters said though, people have strong opinions and won't be swayed by discussion. Reading some of the posts it is interesting to see what some people will say to reinforce their positions.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Oxford » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:20 am

ok my wife works in oh&s and has the following comments re hi-vis. first, studies have shown that orange is the best all round colour. that's why street lighting has that orange glow, its the best wave length/spectrum for our eyes. but most damning is that it breeds complancency. if its not hi-vis and its hit then its not the fault of the driver.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby KenGS » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:49 am

I agree totally that everyone should choose clothing according to their circumstances
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Livetoride » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:51 am

On a dark or over cast day I think hi-vis works, I don't wear it though only because I don't like the look of it to be honest but thats my personnel choice. As for it saving your life or saves you from getting hit... not sure on that idea, I've been hit at night once (from behind), with two flashing bright red lights on the rear of babe and one on my helmet and one very bright one on the front. Have had a number of close calls too, if you can't see me with all that hi-res isn't going to make much more of a difference. Its a case of the motorists not looking for us, or not paying attention (not saying all drivers with that comment)
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby jet-ski » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:57 am

whichway wrote:Well there you go.

I never said or implied that:

You need to wear a high vis vest. There are lots of high vis jerseys that are pretty much the same to wear as any other jersey except for the colour
If you wear high vis you would be entirely safe or that you still wouldn't need to take care on the road. We can all be wiped out by someone who is not even looking at the road.
Made any comment about riding at night in high vis

In order to reinforce arguements, many spurious issues have been raised (eg what am I going to do with my high vis vest when I get to work).

I still haven't seen any arguement that says that high vis clothing is actually more dangerous than the alternative (particularly flouro yellow, flouro green or white), and if people want to beleive that high vis makes absolutely no difference to being seen, then that is up to them.

So apart from looking a bit uncool, I still can't see any reason not to wear high vis.

As one of the posters said though, people have strong opinions and won't be swayed by discussion. Reading some of the posts it is interesting to see what some people will say to reinforce their positions.


There's your problem, right there. Not all of us wear jerseys! I wear everyday clothes for 90% of my riding. The only way to intro high vis is to wear a vest, but then what do I do with it when I arrive at my destination (NOT WORK - I have space under my desk etc to put stuff), but at pubs/art galleries/cinemas/theatres/restaurants etc.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby GraemeL » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:24 pm

jet-ski wrote:There's your problem, right there. Not all of us wear jerseys! I wear everyday clothes for 90% of my riding. The only way to intro high vis is to wear a vest, but then what do I do with it when I arrive at my destination (NOT WORK - I have space under my desk etc to put stuff), but at pubs/art galleries/cinemas/theatres/restaurants etc.


if you have a bag roll it up and put it into that, if you don't then simply run your lock through the arm hole and lock it to the bike or roll it up an put it inside your helmet.
They aren't all that big and roll up quite small.

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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby rkelsen » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:24 pm

whichway wrote:We can all be wiped out by someone who is not even looking at the road.

Exactly.

I suspect that it's the way your question is framed that made people respond negatively to you.

While you mightn't have meant it this way, you come across as though you're saying that people who don't wear hi-vis are asking to be hit by a car.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby Oxford » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:32 pm

so to those people who take a coat to go out but do not need it at the venue, what do you do with it? the whole what do I do with a hi-vis vest at my venue is very spurious, no different to any other piece of apparel, except a hi-vis piece of apparel stands out more than a nice plain jacket/coat/whatever.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby jet-ski » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:48 pm

GraemeL wrote:
jet-ski wrote:There's your problem, right there. Not all of us wear jerseys! I wear everyday clothes for 90% of my riding. The only way to intro high vis is to wear a vest, but then what do I do with it when I arrive at my destination (NOT WORK - I have space under my desk etc to put stuff), but at pubs/art galleries/cinemas/theatres/restaurants etc.


if you have a bag roll it up and put it into that, if you don't then simply run your lock through the arm hole and lock it to the bike or roll it up an put it inside your helmet.
They aren't all that big and roll up quite small.

Graeme


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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby damhooligan » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:20 pm

GraemeL wrote:
damhooligan wrote:
The core thing about being cut off, that it is surprisingly enough done on porpouse,
meaning , I have been seen but they cut me off anyway. (classis : they overtake me, hit the brakes and turn left... )
Same with overtaking, and not being given enough room, thye know I am there, but yet ; not enough room is given.
Both of them are preventable, and presense of hivis is irrelevant, as I have been seen.

The problem is , there are not enough 'well-intentioned' drivers out there.
Hivis wil not change that.


So what you are saying is that ALL drivers act like that? There are those drivers out there that don't give a rats and it wouldn't matter if you had a neon sign strapped to your back they will still cut you off.
What about the drivers that have seen a rider because of the high vis and haven't cut them off? Why is it that high vis works in bad weather and a lot of people use it , but they tend to think it's waste of time or it fails in bright sunshine? I would have thought there wasn't a difference in the effectivness.Graeme


Nooo, I am not saying that all drivers act like that.
But saying that those who do act like that are not persuaded to act differently because of hivis accessories.

And just because many people use it , doesn't mean it works.

Feel free to explain to me how highvis works, as I don't see it. :?
And when using it in in bad weather , do you also use other accesories?
Like bike lights??.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby ausrandoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:03 pm

Last edited by ausrandoman on Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would cyclists rather be injured than uncool?

Postby GraemeL » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:07 pm

jet-ski wrote:No bag. No coat either. It's Perth in Summer! geez


Do you wear cleated shoes? If so then what do you so with them when you go to the pub, movies etc?


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