Hook turn brain teaser

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Hook turn brain teaser

Postby KenGS » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:49 pm

Riding to work once I decided to go down Burke Road Camberwell to make a right turn into Harold Street. I didn't realise there is a No Right Turn sign for the morning peak. I had always planned to do a hook turn anyway but decided to dismount and cross as a pedestrian - just in case. I think a hook turn is not against the spirit of the No Right Turn restriction since the aim is to prevent congestion at the intersection but I figured it could be argued that I was doing a right turn.
I've been through the Road rules and cannot find anything definitive.
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by BNA » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:56 pm

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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby il padrone » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:56 pm

Under Rule 35 & 36, hook turns may be executed by cyclists at almost all intersections. The only exception that prevents a bicycle hook turn is if there is a "no hook turn by bicycles" sign. If you did not have one of these there, then your hook turn would be legally correct.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Oxford » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:27 pm

I agree, the no right turn is to prevent right turns that block intersections. I do hook turns wherever practicable/useful, though have never actually seen a no hook turn by bike sign.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby David_G » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:48 pm

That's an interesting conundrum, but it looks like Il Padrone's got it covered for us. Those turns are banned down there to prevent Burke Rd getting more clogged than normal and to keep the trams moving, there's often PC Plod waiting just around the corner too. But as a hook turn is a right turn, you played your cards well. If you do it again and PC Plod is there, ask him what he thinks of bikes doing hook turns, he or she will probably have to think about it I reckon.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby il padrone » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:03 pm

David_G wrote:But as a hook turn is a right turn, you played your cards well. If you do it again and PC Plod is there, ask him what he thinks of bikes doing hook turns, he or she will probably have to think about it I reckon.

I wouldn't bother, just do your hook turn. Rule 35 is very specific

Victorian Road Rules wrote:35 Optional hook turn by a bicycle rider
(1) The rider of a bicycle turning right at an intersection without a hook turn only sign, or a no hook turn by bicycles sign, may turn right at the intersection by making a right turn under Division 2 or a hook turn under this rule.

Division 2 refers to conventional right-turn procedures from the centre of the road. If this is not permitted the hook turn is the alternative option made available for cyclists by this rule.

If you are stopped by PC Plod, simply ask him if he is familiar with rule 35.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby KenGS » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:24 am

Indeed, on closer inspection I see that hook turns are a separate division from right turns
But just in case I'll print off the relevant rules and take them with me should PC Plod stop me.
Another interesting conundrum for hook turns is that when turning into a road with no cars on it you don't pass over the sensor loop.
I come across that when I'm going down Plenty Rd and turning right at Snake Gully Rd to go to Bundoora Park. Instead of a hook turn, I turn left then do a U-turn to come back over the loop.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Oxford » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:14 am

KenGS wrote:Indeed, on closer inspection I see that hook turns are a separate division from right turns
But just in case I'll print off the relevant rules and take them with me should PC Plod stop me.
Another interesting conundrum for hook turns is that when turning into a road with no cars on it you don't pass over the sensor loop.
I come across that when I'm going down Plenty Rd and turning right at Snake Gully Rd to go to Bundoora Park. Instead of a hook turn, I turn left then do a U-turn to come back over the loop.

red rag to a bull. :lol:

yep done plenty of lefts then U's. alternatively use the pedestrian button if you can reach it.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Rhubarb » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:42 pm

Similar question: With the current partial closure of the bicentennial biketrack in Brisbane, I have needed to ride up George St (heading NW) then turn left into the cycle lane on Tank St to go over the Kurilpa Bridge. However, since reclaiming the left hand lane of Tank St for dedicated cycle lane, Tanks St is one way only for cars and when coming along George St, the sign says "No left turn".

Clearly the sign is meant for cars, but technically a bike is also subject to this ruling as there is no "bikes exempt" type sign under it.

Here's the google street view link:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Tank+S ... ,,0,0&z=19

You can see they even have a green bike box on the left of the white van. The No Left Turn sign is directly above the green light above the van in the photo. You may have to advance street view forward 10m to see it clearly.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby il padrone » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:57 pm

Don't know about the 'no left turn' sign or the police attitude to it. I think they expect you to ride along in the segregated bike lane, then turn left crossing George St using the bike crossing lights into Tank St.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:09 pm

Odd. No Entry signs at the start Of Tank but no mention of bikes excepted, Mr Plod could make a fortune off riders if he's a Courier Mail reader. More fuzzy thinking from the roads people?
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Rhubarb » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:52 am

Even after going through there many times I can't work out how you are supposed to negotiate that turn.

The dedicated bike lane on George St shows arrows going straight ahead and when you have a green there, there is 3 lanes of traffic on your left so you can't do anything except stop there and block the bike lane while you wait.

In the left lane of George St though there is a designated green bike box painted on the road which would presumably be the best place to turn from, except for the no turn left sign. At the very least, that box acknowledges that bikes can use George St, so how do they turn left ???
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Oxford » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:06 am

I have to admit I haven't seen the No Left Turn sign there and rather than be subjected to long wait times (the sequencing is terrible but that seems to be common place for bike infrastructure in Australia) and blocking the bike lane I actually just ride along George Street and then use the foot path to access the bike lane to Kurilpa. That area is a real joke of a solution.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Rhubarb » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:53 am

There's always plenty of police around as the police headquarters and other police buildings are all around there.

I've never had any issues, its just always confused me as to what the technically correct method of turning is.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:50 am

I rode this from the other direction on Friday, ie was riding south down the George St bike lane and turned into the Tank St bike lane.

Check out the "No Entry" sign right at the start of the bikepath.

Obviously it applies to cars only but without a "bikes excepted" type sign, is it technically illegal ?

This screen shot from Google street view shows the sign partly obscured but you can see it's immediately next to the bike lane with an arrow going up painted on it.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Tank+S ... .1,,0,9.46
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby David_G » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:08 pm

That's pretty bizarre, it's obviously bikes excepted, but maybe the council doesn't recognise bike as vehicles? which we know is not the case.
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby KenGS » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:45 pm

Maybe the red bit is not technically part of the road. So when you ride onto it are you leaving the road rather than turning left?

What does the "Keep clear" refer to - given that they are written to be read by someone in the red zone????
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Re: Hook turn brain teaser

Postby Oxford » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:00 pm

KenGS wrote:Maybe the red bit is not technically part of the road. So when you ride onto it are you leaving the road rather than turning left?

What does the "Keep clear" refer to - given that they are written to be read by someone in the red zone????

I don't think they want cyclists gathering in that area waiting to cross as it is pedestrian access to cross Tank Street.
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