Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:50 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Or you could pull over and let them pass

For sure.

This discussion brings to mind my journey cycling into Arkaroola last year, on this road

Image


Plenty of width to it, so we didn't generally feel the need to pull off the road, just kept left when cars came by. Some were OK, but many of the 4WD 'explorers' driving out of Arkaroola in the mid-morning had absolutely no consideration for a couple of cyclists. They continued to fang along at 100kmh+ on this road, oncoming towards us throwing up stones and huge amounts of dust. This occurred despite our effots signalling to slow down. In the end we were, at times, resorting to riding straight at them - even this did not have much impact. My mate was picking up rocks threatenng to throw them at the next one :|

A little bit of consideration counts for a lot, but when it comes to overtaking distances and speeds, the impacts upon cyclists go beyond simply avoiding a collision, and are something no driver would tolerate if the boot was on the other foot.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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by BNA » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:59 pm

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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby martinjs » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:59 pm

Image

Image

Image

Cop these for narrow roads, I don't get off the road for any other reason than co-operation. Several times I've seen the trucks start to pull over but it worries me that they might end up in a ditch or on there side. No good for anyone if that happens. As I've stated while I'm on the move I don't get off the tar at all. If I choose to get out of the way, I stop and dismount. Using the same argument others have used when cars are impatient, what's the hurry? Referring to my situation only, the most stopping and letting the truck to go by may cost me is 30 seconds. Big deal. :D Trucks are happy, I'm happy everybody wins. 8)

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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:22 pm

And with such situations (that I have often faced on touring rides) the question that is not answered - which party should be expected to slow down? Or to stop?

My view on it is both have a moral obligation to slow and to keep as far left as possible. But due to the respective speeds, there is a greater expectation that a motor vehicle will slow down for safety and for everyone's comfort. I ride with wide enough tyres to be able to take to the gravel if required, and will do so.
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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby Xplora » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:47 pm

Martin, I think the issues you raise are precisely why this kind of proposal needs consideration. You MUST have a line in the sand where a driver isn't allowed to cross over. If a bike is a carbon triathlon weapon, it's not going to cope with running off the tar into that gravel, and really a car should be slowing to a virtual standstill to either overtake or continue past the cyclist. It should be plainly obvious that the responsibility to create the space must rest with the driver as well. You must presume the cyclist is going to keep left as much as practicable.

Ultimately though, how do you prove such cases? Do we need video uploads to a cloud server while riding? I think there really must be a rethink about expectations and wording of the law. I think it's worth rewording "must keep left as far as practicable" with "as far as practible, however the driver/rider may make a decision to go further in, as this is acceptable". Common sense and courtesy doesn't feature in the rules, and really needs to be a part of it.
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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby Rhubarb » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:00 pm

martinjs wrote:Image

Image

Image

Cop these for narrow roads, I don't get off the road for any other reason than co-operation. Several times I've seen the trucks start to pull over but it worries me that they might end up in a ditch or on there side. No good for anyone if that happens. As I've stated while I'm on the move I don't get off the tar at all. If I choose to get out of the way, I stop and dismount. Using the same argument others have used when cars are impatient, what's the hurry? Referring to my situation only, the most stopping and letting the truck to go by may cost me is 30 seconds. Big deal. :D Trucks are happy, I'm happy everybody wins. 8)

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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby martinjs » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:46 pm

il padrone wrote:And with such situations (that I have often faced on touring rides) the question that is not answered - which party should be expected to slow down? Or to stop?

My view on it is both have a moral obligation to slow and to keep as far left as possible. But due to the respective speeds, there is a greater expectation that a motor vehicle will slow down for safety and for everyone's comfort. I ride with wide enough tyres to be able to take to the gravel if required, and will do so.


Yes I agree in your situation they should be slowing down, on our narrow roads I'd say 90% do. Even on the wider road most of our local truckies slow down even when doing 100kph on open roads. Actually I've had more close shaves from people coming our from driveways and T intersections with give way signs than anything. In the last month I've had to take evasive action because 2 young woman in 4 cylinder cars, failed to see me at all while turning right, one from a driveway and the other from a T intersection, turning right controlled by a give way sign.
Bloody scary stuff, silly buggers.

I suppose I think a little differently about life the universe and everything. We share the roads and I don't ask or expect any different treatment than I'd expect in a car or a motorbike. If all did followed that philosophy we'd have not problems anyway. :D
If I was driving a car on the road you were riding on and I saw a car or truck coming the other way I'd still slow down. Stone can cause major safety issues with cars as well.

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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby martinjs » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:48 pm

Xplora wrote:Martin, I think the issues you raise are precisely why this kind of proposal needs consideration. You MUST have a line in the sand where a driver isn't allowed to cross over. If a bike is a carbon triathlon weapon, it's not going to cope with running off the tar into that gravel, and really a car should be slowing to a virtual standstill to either overtake or continue past the cyclist. It should be plainly obvious that the responsibility to create the space must rest with the driver as well. You must presume the cyclist is going to keep left as much as practicable.

Ultimately though, how do you prove such cases? Do we need video uploads to a cloud server while riding? I think there really must be a rethink about expectations and wording of the law. I think it's worth rewording "must keep left as far as practicable" with "as far as practible, however the driver/rider may make a decision to go further in, as this is acceptable". Common sense and courtesy doesn't feature in the rules, and really needs to be a part of it.


This can't be right! :lol: I agree with you. 8)

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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby GraemeL » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:17 pm

While I agree with the 1 m, they need to enforce current laws, They are already in place, but there is no enforcement, penalties need to be tougher with higher fines.

How many times do drivers lane split?

They need to toughen up on current laws, if they had tougher penalties and they were enforced properly, we wouldn't really need a new 1m law. Maybe it could be included into the Hoon Legislation. Drivers would be aware that they are not allowed to lane split and if passing a cyclist, they must change lanes completely or face a hefty fine or loss of vehicle, if they are caught, either by police or video evidence.
Police also need to act on any video evidence that is produced, instead of coming up with lame excuses why they don't want to pursue it and trying to lay blame on the cyclist.


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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:38 pm

Thats funny. The two times I mentioned that enforcement was negligable, Smugy accused me of victimising the police and causing third world hunger. Hmmm... maybe it was a personal attack. Sackrey blue!
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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby martinjs » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:09 pm

GraemeL wrote:While I agree with the 1 m, they need to enforce current laws, They are already in place, but there is no enforcement, penalties need to be tougher with higher fines.

How many times do drivers lane split?

They need to toughen up on current laws, if they had tougher penalties and they were enforced properly, we wouldn't really need a new 1m law. Maybe it could be included into the Hoon Legislation. Drivers would be aware that they are not allowed to lane split and if passing a cyclist, they must change lanes completely or face a hefty fine or loss of vehicle, if they are caught, either by police or video evidence.
Police also need to act on any video evidence that is produced, instead of coming up with lame excuses why they don't want to pursue it and trying to lay blame on the cyclist.


Graeme


+100
Pretty much where I'm coming from! If we all followed the current road laws as much as feasible then there would be no need for new laws and some other laws could be relaxed or got rid of. Go figure! :D 8)

But that makes to much sense, so it's not likely to happen. :cry:

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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:22 pm

The police need to do their job. Simple!
The Qld Premier said only yesterday that our crime rate has dropped by 20+% in the last 20(?) years. May have been the last 10. That being the case, and with greater police numbers on our streets, what gives with the blitz and forget for 9 months approach? Our constabulary don't work part time, but enforcement seems to
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Re: Cycling's margin of safety forum - The Age

Postby Oxford » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:25 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:Thats funny. The two times I mentioned that enforcement was negligable, Smugy accused me of victimising the police and causing third world hunger. Hmmm... maybe it was a personal attack. Sackrey blue!

he has riding buddies that are police so probably feels the need to defend their "honour". I'm not a fan of the police either they often do a half baked job when there is clear evidence of infraction or are reluctant to do their job.
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