Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgraceful

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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby blkmcs » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:47 am

Oxford wrote:wow, you really are wound up, personal attacks and all. you really do need to chill out thinking that these cyclists targeted you and inconvenienced you.

this is the optical illusion I refer to:
Image
il padrone explains it well here:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=44491&p=673752&hilit=+abreast#p673752

but hey you believe what you want to believe, those cyclists were out to get you that day.

Oxford, you were not present at the incident so why claim to know more about it than RetroPilot who was actually there?

I accept and believe RetroPilot's version of events.
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by BNA » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:08 am

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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby jasonc » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:08 am

blkmcs wrote:I accept and believe RetroPilot's version of events.


There are three versions of the event:
1. what retropilot saw
2. what another party saw
3. the truth

1 & 2 will make up 3.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby sumgy » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:00 pm

Trekstar
Where exactly did you have your run in with this Pajero?
Had a run in with a Pajero driver myself this morning.
The car had an attachment for a bike rack on the back so I am wondering if it is the same family.
My driver was female though.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28321&p=744978#p744971
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby scotto » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:36 pm

dynamictiger wrote:Maybe it is pajero drivers only..

well in spanish it may be true...
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby damhooligan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:03 pm

TrekStar wrote:Then he turns around and says to me (not a direct quote but the gist of what he said): Mate I am a cyclist too - it's hard to give you more space without me scraping my car on the other side.

just because he says he is a cyclist, doesn't mean he is one...
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby Livetoride » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:54 am

Monday morning riding down into Port Melb on the road, ahead of by three car lengths is a 4WD parked, noticed a guy walking around the front of it, looked at me for a few seconds (at this stage I'm less than a car length away) he then opens his door and slowly gets in, which means obviously the door was open as I passed. What annoyed me was two things, one, he stopped and still opened his door after seeing me and two he was dressed in lycra and had just finished his ride by the looks of it. As I went I through a few choice words at him. We caught up again in traffic and he decided to tell me I had plenty of room, my rely was you're a numb nut you saw me coming and your a bleedin cyclist you should know better. You could see the penny drop with the moron...
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:29 am

RetroPilot wrote:...
there was no need for their approach, theyd be f-you militants the exact zealots who do give drivers ammo against us..
...


And you know this because??? :?

Even with some evidence this is always a big call to make on a single transaction. But I have read the thread and can't for the life of me see where it came from.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby eeksll » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:32 am

Livetoride wrote:...You could see the penny drop with the moron...


at least he got it in the end. Maybe he won't do it next time.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:36 am

Hi,
Yes I have to add my bit to this.
As a long time cyclist who grew up in Sydney and now base myself at Everton on the Victorian "Murray to the mountains" railtrail I'm well aware of bad driving by some cyclist racing around city / country roads pushing other cyclist off the road.
And as an owner of three trucks which I use to travel between Melbourne and the Qld border I'm shocked at the stupid things and speeding some of these motoring cyclist do on country roads and freeways.
I have found its usually the (FIRST) cyclist who is competing in a race of some sort (interstate or intrastate) who is the main offended as they bolt around the country trying to get somewhere in a weekend,(read; drive 800km race, drive another 800km home)
OR the (SECOND) family man cyclist (5 bikes perched on a pretend 4WD, no third number plate, packed full) who comes up to the high country to freewheel down from Beechworth to Everton (17km) then drive all the way home.
And the (THIRD) the caravaner with the 2 bikes on the back covered in rust, no towing mirrors (I thought that was a law) and the vans step still down, just missing your bars as they scrap by not knowing where they're positioned on the road in relation to you.

It don't matter whether your riding your bike, driving a car or driving a truck an idiots an idiots,
By the way as a long time cyclist, I have never had a near miss or incident with a long haul trucker,(no not a Surly) I've found these guys to be most professional, will change lanes completely and signal to others the presences of a rider. I always respect them on the roads and give way to them if they're caught out in a situation and ask other cyclist to do the same.
After all everything you've got ,came in a truck.........That my 2 bobs worth
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:57 am

Just noticed on thread.
Don't know about QLD Oxford, but in NSW a couple of years ago now, (Real Threat to Animals) RTA changed in their road rules handbook (without notification by the way) in the cycling section.
The law use to read ""Cyclist where praticle are to use marked cycle paths and lanes" to the word "MUST".
Look it up.
Geoff
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:16 pm

Hi Oxford, yeh Im not having a go at you mate,
I just wanted to know what the QLD road rules state regarding this, I know road Authorities (all states) have been sneeking in laws which cover alot of onroad cycling issues, being part of a National Road Law.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Hi Oxford,
You might doubt what it says BUT you would be wrong it states, MUST I buy the traffic act book every year and they did change the wording, I did at the time put up an objection to this, but wasn;t backed up by any cycling groups.
Geoff

Here's the link read bicycle lanes section
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/bi ... rules.html
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby simonn » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:07 pm

rokwiz wrote:Hi Oxford,
You might doubt what it says BUT you would be wrong it states, MUST I buy the traffic act book every year and they did change the wording, I did at the time put up an objection to this, but wasn;t backed up by any cycling groups.
Geoff

Here's the link read bicycle lanes section
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/bi ... rules.html


I'll see your guidelines and raise you the actual legislation:

247 Riding in a bicycle lane on a road

(1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.


http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y

There is a "must" in there, but also an "unless" too.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:28 pm

simonn wrote:
rokwiz wrote:Hi Oxford,
You might doubt what it says BUT you would be wrong it states, MUST I buy the traffic act book every year and they did change the wording, I did at the time put up an objection to this, but wasn;t backed up by any cycling groups.
Geoff

Here's the link read bicycle lanes section
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/bi ... rules.html


I'll see your guidelines and raise you the actual legislation:

247 Riding in a bicycle lane on a road

(1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.


http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y

There is a "must" in there, but also an "unless" too.


THIS is why I detest these guidebooks, problem is too many believe them to be gospel and will use their interpretation of some unknown pen pushers interpretation of the law as justification for appalling behaviour.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby simonn » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:48 pm

Mulger bill wrote:THIS is why I detest these guidebooks, problem is too many believe them to be gospel and will use their interpretation of some unknown pen pushers interpretation of the law as justification for appalling behaviour.


Yep. Especially when they are out and out wrong (in bold).

• Cyclists must use a shared path or marked bicycle lane where they are provided unless it is impractical to do so.


http://www.willoughby.nsw.gov.au/Igniti ... 2010-3.pdf

You have to call them, not email them for errors as well. Sigh.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby elStado » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:20 pm

I don't understand how a person who identifies as a 'cyclist' can drive in such a manner. I know that when I (rarely) get in a car and drive I am now super cautious and aware of other road users, especially pedestrians and cyclists. Part of this is from being a commuter cyclists for a number of years and also from having a couple of vehicle accidents (both in a car and on the bike, caused by other peoples negligence) which has really driven home how important it is to watch out for others so to avoid injuring or killing someone else or yourself.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:29 am

Yeh hi,
Don't get why your talking about guidelines, guide books,the book I'm quoting from is a RTA road rules book also the website link I posted its listed under laws and penalties.
I'm quite happy to run blocker for any cyclist out there. Done so many times as a support truck and elStado I toally agree.
Geoff
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby Aushiker » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:38 am

rokwiz wrote:Yeh hi,
Don't get why your talking about guidelines, guide books,the book I'm quoting from is a RTA road rules book also the website link I posted its listed under laws and penalties.
I'm quite happy to run blocker for any cyclist out there. Done so many times as a support truck and elStado I toally agree.
Geoff


I am sorry but you are not quoting from the road rules, you are quoting from a RTA website page discussing the road rules; big difference. The road rules are as gazetted and are published in the link provided later on which is http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y . Note the URL. The full copy of the Act can be found at http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullh ... le.247+0+N ? and all NSW legislation at http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/ which BTW states:

This is the official NSW Government website for online publication of legislation and is provided and maintained by the Parliamentary Counsel's Office.

The website contains:

Acts, regulations, planning instruments and other statutory instruments, as constantly consolidated and updated in the dynamic In Force database
Point-in-time historical and repealed versions from the In Force database
Notification: official online notification of the making of new statutory instruments
Acts as assented to since 1824 in the static, archival As Made database
Statutory instruments as originally made since 1990
Advanced searching and browsing features
Guides to legislation
Bills—introduced, explanatory notes and consultation drafts
Legislation on this website is generally authorised—see About


You might also find this WA Guideline on understanding legislation helpful.

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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:48 pm

Hi, glad you cleared that up, but the word is still there Must in your link.
Never realised I got my HC licence by reading a guidlines book !
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby Aushiker » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:32 pm

rokwiz wrote:Hi, glad you cleared that up, but the word is still there Must in your link.
Never realised I got my HC licence by reading a guidlines book !
Geoff


I don't think anyone is disputing that BUT you are taking one word out of context and basing your argument on it. There is a whole sentence there which has a critical qualification, well two actually. The first is:

(
1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.


The first critical qualifier.

The second critical qualifier is that this refers to a bicycle lane. A bicycle lane will be defined in the in the Act and should state and how it should be signed. If it is like WA, road markings do not necessarily make it a bike lane, e.g., a shallow (shoulder) with painted cyclist symbols is not a bike lane. A bike lane has to have a start and end sign as defined in the Regulations.

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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby citywomble » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:24 pm

Aushiker said
The second critical qualifier is that this refers to a bicycle lane. A bicycle lane will be defined in the in the Act and should state and how it should be signed. If it is like WA, road markings do not necessarily make it a bike lane, e.g., a shallow (shoulder) with painted cyclist symbols is not a bike lane. A bike lane has to have a start and end sign as defined in the Regulations.


Actually, having investigated this in more depth, I believe that a painted bike symbol may well make it a bike lane. Apart from the qualifier you have mentioned, the 'definitions' are essential reading.
What is very relevant is that the definition of a SIGN includes road markings. So a road marking is a lawful 'sign' and bike lanes indicated by the bike road marking should, therefore, be a legal bike lane.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby simonn » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:37 pm

citywomble wrote:Actually, having investigated this in more depth, I believe that a painted bike symbol may well make it a bike lane. Apart from the qualifier you have mentioned, the 'definitions' are essential reading.
What is very relevant is that the definition of a SIGN includes road markings. So a road marking is a lawful 'sign' and bike lanes indicated by the bike road marking should, therefore, be a legal bike lane.


I believe that your belief is wrong, in NSW at least.

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y

153 Bicycle lanes

...
(4) A bicycle lane is a marked lane, or the part of a marked lane:

(a) beginning at a bicycle lane sign applying to the lane, and

(b) ending at the nearest of the following:

(i) an end bicycle lane sign applying to the lane,

(ii) an intersection (unless the lane is at the unbroken side of the continuing road at a T-intersection or continued across the intersection by broken lines),

(iii) if the road ends at a dead end—the end of the road.

Note. Continuing road, intersection, marked lane and T-intersection are defined in the Dictionary.


I cannot copy the images as displayed in the above link, but this is a bicycle lane sign:

Image

This is an end bicycle lane sign:

Image

Seriously people, it is only reading. I have provided the link to the legislation. Speculation and belief are ridiculous when there is t'internet.
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby Aushiker » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:45 pm

citywomble wrote:Actually, having investigated this in more depth, I believe that a painted bike symbol may well make it a bike lane. Apart from the qualifier you have mentioned, the 'definitions' are essential reading.
What is very relevant is that the definition of a SIGN includes road markings. So a road marking is a lawful 'sign' and bike lanes indicated by the bike road marking should, therefore, be a legal bike lane.


Yes I am aware of your thoughts on that aspect, however Regulation 3 states:

bicycle lane means a marked lane, or the part of a marked lane —
(a) beginning at a “bicycle lane” sign applying to the lane; and
(b) ending at the nearest of the following:
(i) an “end bicycle lane” sign applying to the lane;
(ii) an intersection (unless the lane is at the unbroken
side of the continuing road at a T-intersection or continued across the intersection by broken lines);
(iii) if the carriageway ends at a dead end — the end of the carriageway;

Note There are a number of other permitted versions of the “bicycle lane” sign, and another permitted version of the “end bicycle lane” sign.


The bicycle lane signs or symbols if you prefer as given in the Regulations contain the word "lane" with I assume the intention of clearly communicating the existence of lane. I would assume that bicycle lane road markings would have to do the same so that a user can clearly determine that is in fact a bicycle lane and not a shallow or shoulder. Interesting the only bicycle lanes I am aware of all signed as per the examples in the regulations.

I haven't yet found any information on the other "permitted versions" but would assume that they again would have to clearly communicate that a lane is in fact a bicycle lane as defined.

BTW maybe being pedantic but the bicycle lane definition specifically refers to a bicycle lane sign not a road sign .... that may be a critical distinction more so given the way the phrase "road sign" is used in the regulations. :wink:

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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby find_bruce » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:56 pm

citywomble wrote:Actually, having investigated this in more depth, I believe that a painted bike symbol may well make it a bike lane. Apart from the qualifier you have mentioned, the 'definitions' are essential reading. What is very relevant is that the definition of a SIGN includes road markings. So a road marking is a lawful 'sign' and bike lanes indicated by the bike road marking should, therefore, be a legal bike lane.

Should make it very interesting on part of my route - the painted bike symbol is at seemingly random places on the road with no other lane markings- If your interpretation was correct, this road marking would make the entire road a bicycle lane. As you no doubt realise it is illegal for a car to drive on a bike lane - see NSW road rule 153(1)

Whilst this rule would be very convenient for me, I suspect that the local residents would not be impressed & if it ever got to court, it is most unlilkey the court would find the whole road had become a bike lane.

A for effort though, very creative
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Re: Cyclists being bad drivers to other Cyclist - Disgracefu

Postby rokwiz » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:30 pm

Hi,
Poor original poster Trekstar,this thread has been bogged down in the legal dept.
Theres' your answer why he did, It seems the road rules are only guidelines anyway, so perhaps that Pajero driver read it as he does''t really have to give cyclist a metre clearance.
Geoff
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