Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

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Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby KenGS » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:22 pm

I had previously thought that it was legal, in Victoria, to overtake to the left of a vehicle that is indicating left but not actually turning:
141 No overtaking etc. to the left of a vehicle
(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless—
<snip>
(2) The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left change of direction signal.

But I then found in the Australian Road Rules readers' guide:
Use of present tense for some actions
The rules may say that a driver ‘is turning’ at an intersection. The use of the present tense is intended to cover both the present and future aspects of the present tense. That is, it refers to a driver who is preparing to make the turn as well as a driver who is in the course of making the turn. The context will make this clear in the rule.

Now the Australian Road Rules also say:
As a matter of law, the Guide is not part of the Australian Road Rules.

But the Victorian Road Safety Rules say as a note added to section 9A Application of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 of the Commonwealth
Notes
1 Section 95(3C) of the Road Safety Act 1986 provides that regulations may apply Commonwealth interpretation enactments to the interpretation of the
regulations, in whole or part and with or without modifications. However, section 95(3E) provides that this does not prevent the Interpretation of Legislation
Act 1984 from applying to the extent that it can do so consistently with that Commonwealth legislation.

Which I think is my avatar saying that Commonwealth interpretations apply.

I guess the safest thing is to filter to the right of a left indicating vehicle, even if there is a bike lane
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by BNA » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:39 pm

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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby il padrone » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:39 pm

A driver with indicators on and 20m back from the next corner, in stationary traffic is well into the future. You're legal.

A driver stopped at the corner with indicators on, waiting for peds to cross - you'd be illegal to pass on the left.

I generally go to the right where I see there are a number of left-turners as a matter of course for my safety. Easier to merge in with ongoing traffic as they start off than to pick up the mangled bike and walk it to work :(
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby trailgumby » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:47 pm

il padrone wrote:A driver with indicators on and 20m back from the next corner, in stationary traffic is well into the future. You're legal.

Hmmm... while I've done that on the rare occasion when traffic has been backed up and there has been no opportunity whatsoever for the driver to suddenly pull left into say a driveway or parking spot, saying it is legal as a blanket statement might be going a bit far.

Not saying you're wrong but I wouldn't be making a habit of it.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby Oxford » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:56 pm

il padrone wrote:A driver with indicators on and 20m back from the next corner, in stationary traffic is well into the future. You're legal.

...

Unless of course the driver is indicating to pull over to the kerb. :idea: We are not mind readers, so can never truly know if the are turning or pulling over.

FWIW, I just take the option of assuming its best not to pass on the left of an indicating vehicle. That way you can be sure you have done the right thing (if it is the right thing depending on interpretations of which we're sure to get many) and in the process may actually be safer for it.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby il padrone » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:38 pm

Well, if they're stopped in traffic on a main road, I'd think just pulling over is going to give them a lot more grief than my protestations. On most main roads within 20m of a controlled intersection it's usually illegal too. A driver cannot just pull over if a cyclist is alongside them either.

Like I said I try to avoid such situations but it's always a case of 'reading' the traffic as much as you can.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby Oxford » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:31 pm

But they will be closer to the future, than the corner. :P
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby KenGS » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:39 pm

This intersection presents an an interesting conundrum. Google street view
Note that the "bike lane" on the left does not meet the definitions in the road rules as it has no posted signs but it has the advantage of putting the cyclist ahead of the traffic. Often just one car is stopped as in the street view and irrespective of whether turning or not they stop there so as not to block the "bike lane".
So several things to consider if a car is stopped at the line but indicating left. Is it legal to pass on the left? It's tempting to get into the advanced bike position but then again if the car has overshot the line like the one in the picture (or worse) you are at risk of being left hooked and possibly being legally in the wrong.
At this intersection I take the main lane if there is a car indicating left or the lights are green, but take the "bike lane" if they red and cars are indicating right or going straight through so I can filter to the front.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby myforwik » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:00 pm

KenGS wrote:This intersection presents an an interesting conundrum. Google street view
Note that the "bike lane" on the left does not meet the definitions in the road rules as it has no posted signs but it has the advantage of putting the cyclist ahead of the traffic. Often just one car is stopped as in the street view and irrespective of whether turning or not they stop there so as not to block the "bike lane".
So several things to consider if a car is stopped at the line but indicating left. Is it legal to pass on the left? It's tempting to get into the advanced bike position but then again if the car has overshot the line like the one in the picture (or worse) you are at risk of being left hooked and possibly being legally in the wrong.
At this intersection I take the main lane if there is a car indicating left or the lights are green, but take the "bike lane" if they red and cars are indicating right or going straight through so I can filter to the front.


You have completely missread the road rules. If it is a marked bike lane it is a seperate lane of traffic. You can pass on the left whenever you want. They have to give way to you. A car turning left is meant to approach the intersection *in the bike lane*, which they can enter 100m before the turn. If they don't its just like they were turning left from a right car lane. They have to give way to anyone in the lane to there left.

The whole thing about passing on the left of a car turning left only applies when you are in the same lane and you are cutting them up there inside.

So in summary, what you are doing is the right thing to do when there is no bike lane, but when there is a bikelane and no one is in it, you have 100% right of way and anyone who even turns left while not in the bikelane is technically breaking the law.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby wombatK » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:06 pm

KenGS wrote:This intersection presents an an interesting conundrum. Google street view
Note that the "bike lane" on the left does not meet the definitions in the road rules as it has no posted signs but it has the advantage of putting the cyclist ahead of the traffic. Often just one car is stopped as in the street view and irrespective of whether turning or not they stop there so as not to block the "bike lane".

Don't know if I' missing something just looking at the Google View, but, as you say, it's not a bicycle lane - but rather just a
shoulder with cyclist awareness markings. From the google view, it looks like the shoulder line marking turns in
and ends about 30 cm or so before the stop line. If you are crossing the shoulder line marking (its an unbroken line),
you are leaving the shoulder - and the rules put obligations on you to give way when doing so. Being out in front
by 1 or 2 m won't lessen that obligation. It might give you some sense of security that the motorist, having seen
you, will give you priority - but that could well be a very false sense of security.

Really, thinking about who'll come off best in a court-room isn't that helpful, especially if you end up in a grave.
Moreover, caring about the details of the law is no good at all when so many motorists are even more ignorant
about the law and drive in flagrant disregard for it.

It's better to assume the worst of every motorist, and particularly not to rely on indicators. Way too many
will turn left without indicating. Take off slowly, cover your brakes and watch their wheels, eyes, and hands
for any signs they are looking to or making a turn left (with or without any forethought and/or malice intent).

Cheers
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby KenGS » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:48 pm

The shoulder line is continuous and extends part the stop line all the way up to the pedestrian crossing. It just looks like it turns in because its been scrubbed out by cars turning left across it.
Just another example of how someone, probably well meaning, has created a confusing and potentially dangerous situation by putting in a faux bike lane. The design should take into account the road rules and driver behaviour to ensure it really is helping the cyclist. I think there should be a bike box in front of the stop line if the bike lane extends all the way to the intersection to place cyclists out of the way of left turning vehicles or they should just drop the bike lane altogether
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby simonn » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:59 am

KenGS wrote:This intersection presents an an interesting conundrum. Google street view


I have a lane like this every commute.

Look and indicate ~30M or so before the junction and move out into and claim the lane. Job done.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:52 am

myforwik wrote:You have completely missread the road rules....


Don't be too harsh, most licensed car drivers don't seem to know they are supposed to give way when turning across a bicycle lane either. :roll:
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby wombatK » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:07 pm

KenGS wrote:The shoulder line is continuous and extends part the stop line all the way up to the pedestrian crossing. It just looks like it turns in because its been scrubbed out by cars turning left across it.

The line which is parallel to the kerb has been scrubbed out by traffic, but the "end-line" which is parallel to pedestrian crossing lines (and right angle to the kerb) has not. And it finishes probably 30 cm or more short of the pedestrian crossing. It marks the end of the shoulder, and at that point a cyclist has to give way to the traffic (and/or any pedestrians on the crossing).

Don't think a bicycle box would help. The Road Rules don't appear to create any special obligations on motorists to give
way to cyclists on a bicycle box (aka bicycle storage area). If it were part of a bicycle lane, you might have better
protection - but it's the lane rather than the box doing the work.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:59 pm

wombatK wrote:Don't know if I' missing something just looking at the Google View, but, as you say, it's not a bicycle lane - but rather just a
shoulder with cyclist awareness markings.

It is clearly a marked lane. Drivers must give way to any other vehicles in the lane when entering or turning across it. Rule 148 of Vic road rules.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby wombatK » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:14 pm

il padrone wrote:
wombatK wrote:Don't know if I' missing something just looking at the Google View, but, as you say, it's not a bicycle lane - but rather just a
shoulder with cyclist awareness markings.

It is clearly a marked lane. Drivers must give way to any other vehicles in the lane when entering or turning across it. Rule 148 of Vic road rules.

Not so clear to me...

A marked lane:
marked lane means an area of a road marked by continuous or broken
lines, or rows of studs or markers, on the road surface that is designed
for use by a single line of vehicles.

In "continuous or broken lines", a plural has been used. I take it that
means a marked lane must have a line (continuous or broken) on
each side of it. "Rows" is also similarly plural.

What we have in the OP's google view is not a marked line. But it
has

an edge line:
edge line, for a road, means a line marked along the road at or near the
far left or far right side of the road (except any road-related area of the
road).


The kerb side of the edge line is clearly not adequate for use by
the vast majority of motor vehicles, and clearly is not designed for use
by motor vehicles travelling along the road...
Rule 12 wrote:(3) The shoulder of the road includes any part of the road that
is not designed to be used by motor vehicles in travelling
along the road, and includes:
(a) for a kerbed road — any part of the kerb; and
(b) for a sealed road — any unsealed part of the road, and
any sealed part of the road outside an edge line on the
road
;
but does not include a bicycle path, footpath or shared path.
Note Bicycle path is defined in rule 239, edge line and footpath
(emphasis added)
hence it is a shoulder of the road.

I'd love to be wrong about this - but until I hear it from a lawyer
expert in the road rules, I'll treat these situations like a road
shoulder and assume I must give way.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby KenGS » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:38 pm

Curiouser and curiouser...
wombatK wrote:
il padrone wrote:
wombatK wrote:Don't know if I' missing something just looking at the Google View, but, as you say, it's not a bicycle lane - but rather just a
shoulder with cyclist awareness markings.

It is clearly a marked lane. Drivers must give way to any other vehicles in the lane when entering or turning across it. Rule 148 of Vic road rules.

Not so clear to me...

A marked lane:
marked lane means an area of a road marked by continuous or broken lines, or rows of studs or markers, on the road surface that is designed for use by a single line of vehicles.

In "continuous or broken lines", a plural has been used. I take it that means a marked lane must have a line (continuous or broken) on each side of it. "Rows" is also similarly plural.

But then the leftmost and rightmost lanes of most multi-lane roads would not the qualify as marked lanes. Also note it says "vehicles" not "motor vehicles"
What we have in the OP's google view is not a marked line. But it has an edge line:
edge line, for a road, means a line marked along the road at or near the far left or far right side of the road (except any road-related area of the road).

Depends on the definition of "near". I would think this refers to a line right on the edge of the road. Hmmm... that then becomes a circular reference
The kerb side of the edge line is clearly not adequate for use by the vast majority of motor vehicles, and clearly is not designed for use by motor vehicles travelling along the road...
Rule 12 wrote:(3) The shoulder of the road includes any part of the road that is not designed to be used by motor vehicles in travelling along the road, and includes:
(a) for a kerbed road — any part of the kerb; and
(b) for a sealed road — any unsealed part of the road, and
any sealed part of the road outside an edge line on the road;
but does not include a bicycle path, footpath or shared path.
Note Bicycle path is defined in rule 239, edge line and footpath
(emphasis added)
hence it is a shoulder of the road.

You could be onto something here. Note that Vic Road Rules are different but similar in intent:
(3) The shoulder of the road means an area (not being part of the road) adjoining the road that is open to or used by the public for driving, riding or parking motor vehicles and to which a parking control sign does not apply.

BUT - if you pan around on Google Maps there is a parking control sign (no standing)!!! So it is NOT a shoulder in Victoria. But it might still be a road related area.
I'd love to be wrong about this - but until I hear it from a lawyer expert in the road rules, I'll treat these situations like a road shoulder and assume I must give way.

Or better still, have no obligation to use that lane at all. Mind you I have copped abuse once on that road to "get in the #!$#% bike lane". Next time I'll quote all the above. :lol:
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby twizzle » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:43 am

twizzle wrote:
myforwik wrote:You have completely missread the road rules....


Don't be too harsh, most licensed car drivers don't seem to know they are supposed to give way when turning across a bicycle lane either. :roll:


And yesterday I nearly got taken out by a car turning left across a cycle lane, after he appeared to be stopping for me he suddenly turned across the lane and I came within cm's of having my front wheel taken out. Scared the crackers out of me, I yelled out that he was a Fwit and he obviously heard me as he opened his window and screamed abuse back at me. Another fine example of good relations between road users. :(
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby myforwik » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:26 pm

wombatK wrote:In "continuous or broken lines", a plural has been used. I take it that
means a marked lane must have a line (continuous or broken) on
each side of it. "Rows" is also similarly plural.


I'd love to be wrong about this - but until I hear it from a lawyer
expert in the road rules, I'll treat these situations like a road
shoulder and assume I must give way.


Laws always include the singular in the plural. Otherwise you could claim almost every regulation does not apply to you because they apply to 'vehicles' and you are only a single vehicle.

A white bike symbol means a bikelane in every state in Australia. Sadly they are mostly painted on what was the shoulder. A car turn left at that intersection should be moving into the bikelane and make a left turn from within it.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby KenGS » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:34 pm

myforwik wrote:A white bike symbol means a bikelane in every state in Australia. Sadly they are mostly painted on what was the shoulder. A car turn left at that intersection should be moving into the bikelane and make a left turn from within it.

Except in Victoria apparently unless I have once again completely misread the road rules which state:
(4) A bicycle lane is a marked lane, or the part of a marked lane—
(a) beginning at a bicycle lane sign applying to the lane; and
(b) ending at the nearest of the following—
(i) an end bicycle lane sign applying to the lane;
(ii) an intersection (unless the lane is at the unbroken side of the continuing road at a T-intersection or continued across the intersection by broken lines);
(iii) if the road ends at a dead end—the end of the road.

My highlighting and the rules then go on to show what a bicycle lane sign looks like
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby wombatK » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:47 pm

myforwik wrote:Laws always include the singular in the plural. Otherwise you could claim almost every regulation does not apply to you because they apply to 'vehicles' and you are only a single vehicle.

That's a straw man argument.
myforwik wrote:A white bike symbol means a bikelane in every state in Australia. Sadly they are mostly painted on what was the shoulder. A car turn left at that intersection should be moving into the bikelane and make a left turn from within it.

Don't know what state you are living in, but most states have exactly the same Road Rules as cited by KenGS for Victoria.
So for most of Australia, if not all, you are plain wrong on this too.

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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby greyhoundtom » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:58 pm

There is no way that this lane is a bicycle lane.

As far as I’m concerned it is the shoulder of the road that the council has painted the bicycle logo on, and therefore well prior to each intersection you need to stop riding on the shoulder and claim the lane.

If you work your way back on street view there are cars parked in front of shops and private dwellings at various spots all in the so called bike lane.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby maestro » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:14 pm

myforwik wrote:A white bike symbol means a bikelane in every state in Australia. Sadly they are mostly painted on what was the shoulder. A car turn left at that intersection should be moving into the bikelane and make a left turn from within it.


I also disagree here. Have a look at the link below... There is no way on earth that this is a bike lane.
http://www.nearmap.com/?q=@-34.0814424, ... d=20111023

My personal opinion is that the law is ambiguous in this situation as it could be argued either way (is it an "edge" or a "lane" line). And for those who decide that it's more convenient for them to just assume that it's a lane line, remember that it's more convenient for cars to assume that it's an edge line.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby myforwik » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:31 am

Yeah I was wrong - its only in QLD. I thought it was part of Australian Road Rules, but QLD's website has tricked me again.
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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby Aushiker » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:42 am

myforwik wrote:Yeah I was wrong - its only in QLD. I thought it was part of Australian Road Rules, but QLD's website has tricked me again.


Are you sure about that? My quick check of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management—Road Rules) Regulation 2009 shows that it includes the same definition as WA and I assume all states for a bicycle lane, i.e., it has to marked with a bicycle lane sign at the start and end. A road marking is not a bicycle lane sign. Regulation 153 is the relevant one.

I haven't done a more in-depth search so there may be a variance that I missed.

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Re: Overtaking on the left of a left -turning vehicle

Postby citywomble » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:56 pm

Andrew,

In WA the definition of a 'sign' includes 'Road Marking' so a road marking can be a bicycle lane sign. Unfortunately in QLD the definition is different and it would not apply.
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