Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wellington_street » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:34 pm

wizdofaus wrote:Even as an experienced cyclist with little fear of mixing it with cars I don't really care for that arrangement because of the too-many-times you get held up by cars merging into the lane (often having to brake quite quickly as cars try to merge right in front of you when there's inadequate room for them to actually make it fully into the turning lane), plus the potential confusion you cause drivers when you're turning left yourself.


So instead you sit at a red light and be delayed by that?

wizdofaus wrote:What's an example in Melbourne of dedicated bicycle traffic lights with "stupidly high cycle times"?


Not sure for Melbourne but there was a couple of videos of these arrangements posted from Brisbane in either the Dumb Ped/Cycle thread or Moron Motorists thread.

Most major intersections in Sydney, Brisbane and Perth also run on long cycle times (i.e. minimum 2 minutes, sometimes even over 3 minutes) so it's a long wait for pedestrians and cyclists using the paths. Add to this the fact that these parallel crossings are not automatically activated every cycle - someone has to press a button to activate them - you are almost certainly assured of never having a clear run through, which you get now on through routes with synchronised green waves.

So essentially, in the Australian context, you go from moving as part of traffic and having the same priority, to moving as a pedestrian and having low to no priority. It's extremely wishful thinking that this sort of arrangement is going to be prioritised for cyclists anywhere in Australia, let alone outside of the handful of high bicycle volume routes in the inner city.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:42 pm

Ahh, yes the poor light cycle times are an issue in Melbourne. All a symptom of the lurgy of "must not slow down the car-drivers".

A long one? Capital City Trail crossing Brunswick St - a good 3 mins to trigger a change...... on a quiet Sunday morning :x
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:19 pm

wellington_street wrote:So essentially, in the Australian context, you go from moving as part of traffic and having the same priority, to moving as a pedestrian and having low to no priority. It's extremely wishful thinking that this sort of arrangement is going to be prioritised for cyclists anywhere in Australia, let alone outside of the handful of high bicycle volume routes in the inner city.

I was simply demonstrating something that could be regarded as "world's best practice"....... something to push our roads authorities to aim for.

If you don't have anything to aim for as the ideal, what then? We just put up with the dross? :| :roll:
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:11 pm

wellington_street wrote:
wizdofaus wrote:Even as an experienced cyclist with little fear of mixing it with cars I don't really care for that arrangement because of the too-many-times you get held up by cars merging into the lane (often having to brake quite quickly as cars try to merge right in front of you when there's inadequate room for them to actually make it fully into the turning lane), plus the potential confusion you cause drivers when you're turning left yourself.


So instead you sit at a red light and be delayed by that?


Yes, I'd much prefer that - there's clear waiting zone where cars expect you to be, you know how long you'll have to wait, and it's clear when it's safe to go. And as I understand the way the light cycles work in those Dutch intersections (as opposed to my original suggestion), you never have to wait for anything other than traffic going in the crossways direction.

wellington_street wrote:Most major intersections in Sydney, Brisbane and Perth also run on long cycle times (i.e. minimum 2 minutes, sometimes even over 3 minutes) so it's a long wait for pedestrians and cyclists using the paths. Add to this the fact that these parallel crossings are not automatically activated every cycle - someone has to press a button to activate them - you are almost certainly assured of never having a clear run through, which you get now on through routes with synchronised green waves.


Which is a relatively cheap and simple problem to fix, provided you can convince the authorities of the benefits!

As for the wishful thinking part, I bet if anyone had said 15 years ago we would have Copenhagen-style lanes in Melbourne within 10 years you would have told them they're dreaming. And the inner-city areas realistically are going to be the only areas where there's enough bicycles to justify major junction reconfigurations for some time yet, but it has to start somewhere.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:13 pm

il padrone wrote:Ahh, yes the poor light cycle times are an issue in Melbourne. All a symptom of the lurgy of "must not slow down the car-drivers".

A long one? Capital City Trail crossing Brunswick St - a good 3 mins to trigger a change...... on a quiet Sunday morning :x


Whereas here in Kensington most of the pedestrian crossing buttons cause the traffic lights to change *instantly* even in peak hour. I was quite taken aback the first time it happened but given it's the norm here, there's no reason we can't get other councils to adopt it for other pedestrian and bicycle crossings.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby human909 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:49 pm

wizdofaus wrote:Whereas here in Kensington most of the pedestrian crossing buttons cause the traffic lights to change *instantly* even in peak hour. I was quite taken aback the first time it happened but given it's the norm here, there's no reason we can't get other councils to adopt it for other pedestrian and bicycle crossings.


That is how it should be! In fact ALL minor roads should have instant trigger subject to an appropriate cool down period.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:12 pm

wizdofaus wrote:What's an example in Melbourne of dedicated bicycle traffic lights with "stupidly high cycle times"?


Crossing Footscray Rd at Dudley St. IIRC, it's threes seperate sets to get across and you have to wait the whole multidirectional cycle to cross each leg.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wellington_street » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:18 pm

il padrone wrote:
wellington_street wrote:So essentially, in the Australian context, you go from moving as part of traffic and having the same priority, to moving as a pedestrian and having low to no priority. It's extremely wishful thinking that this sort of arrangement is going to be prioritised for cyclists anywhere in Australia, let alone outside of the handful of high bicycle volume routes in the inner city.

I was simply demonstrating something that could be regarded as "world's best practice"....... something to push our roads authorities to aim for.

If you don't have anything to aim for as the ideal, what then? We just put up with the dross? :| :roll:


Don't disagree with you il padrone :) I was just bringing a slice of unfortunate reality to the discussion.

I think given the Australian context I'd rather have existing Australian best practice treatments as it means it's a lot more likely I'll get a green light and be able to maintain my speed in line with traffic. I don't like the idea of facing a red man at every crossing (or else I'd be on the path) or relying on cars to give way in the equivalent of a zebra crossing situation. I have enough troubles as a ped in that situation - on a bike I'd prefer to be on the right or in front/behind a left turner, not coming up on their left and expecting them to give way.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:55 pm

wellington_street wrote:I think given the Australian context I'd rather have existing Australian best practice treatments as it means it's a lot more likely I'll get a green light and be able to maintain my speed in line with traffic. I don't like the idea of facing a red man at every crossing (or else I'd be on the path) or relying on cars to give way in the equivalent of a zebra crossing situation. I have enough troubles as a ped in that situation - on a bike I'd prefer to be on the right or in front/behind a left turner, not coming up on their left and expecting them to give way.


You might rather it, and personally I'm fine either way, but what we should care about is what's going to work for the significant percentage of people out there that would consider using their bikes if they believed it was safe to do so.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:29 pm

More and more it is a case of encouraging more people back to the bike by providing bike lanes, even the separated lanes. If we want to do this it is much wiser to provide the lane protection at the intersections as it is in these locations, more-so than mid-block, that most of the urban cycle collisions occur.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:36 am

il padrone wrote:More and more it is a case of encouraging more people back to the bike by providing bike lanes, even the separated lanes. If we want to do this it is much wiser to provide the lane protection at the intersections as it is in these locations, more-so than mid-block, that most of the urban cycle collisions occur.


True, though of course encouraging people on to bikes is as much about improving perceived safety as anything. This sort of intersection design I would say gives potential cyclists both a real increase in perceived safety, and as you say, given most accidents between vehicles of any sort occur at intersections, so almost certainly will improve real safety. However if building these intersections meant less money to spend on other basic upgrades (I mentioned a few examples towards the end of my latest blog post) I'd be hesitant to support them - they need to be the sort of thing that convince governments to allocate more money towards cycling infrastructure.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:45 am

wizdofaus wrote:However if building these intersections meant less money to spend on other basic upgrades (I mentioned a few examples towards the end of my latest blog post) I'd be hesitant to support them - they need to be the sort of thing that convince governments to allocate more money towards cycling infrastructure.

Kind of irrelevant given our current Napthine medication for cycling :roll:
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:09 am

il padrone wrote:
wizdofaus wrote:However if building these intersections meant less money to spend on other basic upgrades (I mentioned a few examples towards the end of my latest blog post) I'd be hesitant to support them - they need to be the sort of thing that convince governments to allocate more money towards cycling infrastructure.

Kind of irrelevant given our current Napthine medication for cycling :roll:


So the goal then is to prove that they save money in the medium to long term!

Not sure where to find figures but I've no doubt that the Netherlands spends a much smaller portion of its government budget (at all levels) on transport infrastructure than we do here. And yes, it has a number of advantages of density and flat terrain and close connectivity to other countries that will always mean this is the case, so a more interesting comparison might be, say, the Netherlands with Germany or France, that haven't prioritised bicycling infrastructure over alternatives quite so much.
Unfortunately I suspect for most of the benefits from improving cycling infrastructure around Melbourne it would be hard to measure the dollar value, and by and large it wouldn't be savings to the sitting state government's budget.

Some interesting stats - in Australia I believe we spend (across all 3 layers of government) about $1-2 per person annually on bicycle infrastructure. In the Netherlands it's ~$40 (USD equivalent) - at least 20 times more, but still hardly a mind-blowing amount.
Just federally we spend about $270 per Australian on roads every year, I can't find exact figures for state and local spending but it would be at least another $20 or $30 per resident (supposedly the Victorian State Budget for road projects is at about $100 million for this year), so let's say $300 per person annually - well over 150 times as much as is spent on bicycle infrastructure. But...the only figure I found for the Netherlands it that it's annual budget to "keep traffic flowing smoothly during rush hour in traffic-heavy areas" was 50 billion which sounds far too much, nearly $3000 per capita! Maybe that's entire "infrastructure" project, not sure. No time to find more reliable numbers at this point unfortunately.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:24 am

Interestingly though, the Netherlands has one of the highest average commute times in Europe, and certainly higher than in Australia. My question would be how does this break down by mode type, and maybe it's a good thing if lots of people are spending 1-1.5 hours every day on their bicycles getting to/from work.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:41 am

My understanding, from friends who have lived in the Netherlands, is that a 10km commute by bike is very unusual. Most people ride up to about 5kms by bike. If they have to commute longer distances they ride to the rail station and take a commuter train, then if necessary, hire a bike at the other end.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby human909 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:55 am

wizdofaus wrote:Interestingly though, the Netherlands has one of the highest average commute times in Europe, and certainly higher than in Australia. My question would be how does this break down by mode type, and maybe it's a good thing if lots of people are spending 1-1.5 hours every day on their bicycles getting to/from work.


Local trips in the Netherlands are by bicycle.

Commuting to work is often by bicycle and train. Very few dutch would be spending more than 30minute on their bike to work.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:59 am

human909 wrote:
wizdofaus wrote:Interestingly though, the Netherlands has one of the highest average commute times in Europe, and certainly higher than in Australia. My question would be how does this break down by mode type, and maybe it's a good thing if lots of people are spending 1-1.5 hours every day on their bicycles getting to/from work.


Local trips in the Netherlands are by bicycle.

Commuting to work is often by bicycle and train. Very few dutch would be spending more than 30minute on their bike to work.


I wonder why...supposedly the mode share for journeys between 4.5 and 6.5 km is about 24%. 6.5 km along flat good quality paths seems like an easy comfortable ride for an average everyday utility cyclist, 10 km isn't that much more...but then I'm the sort of person that wishes they could do their 18 km commute through Melbourne's hills battling against distracted and/or hostile drivers every day (I can't only because I have to get my kid to school along that same distance). It does seem the authorities are betting bicycles will start to be used for longer journeys, particularly electric bicycles, hence the construction of various longer-distance 'bicycle highways'.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:32 am

Dutch commuters generally ride quite slowly. 15-20kmh on flat roads is about normal. They do not want to get into a lather of sweat on arrival at work, pretty reasonable really.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:38 am

Houten ride to work

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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:07 am

il padrone wrote:Dutch commuters generally ride quite slowly. 15-20kmh on flat roads is about normal. They do not want to get into a lather of sweat on arrival at work, pretty reasonable really.


And I'd argue that a moderately fit person can cycle 10 km at 20k/h along good quality bike paths with minimal stops and starts on flat terrain in the sort of cool climate the Netherlands has without getting hot or sweaty at all, even given the heavy sort of bikes the Dutch tend to use.
Indeed, such a mode of travel would, I'd estimate, be about as much effort as walking at 5 k/h, which is a fairly moderate walking speed.

I have to say though that seems a somewhat contrived example of a bike being faster than a car. I've said before that almost any trip made with about a 4-5km radius of Melbourne's CBD is going to be faster by bike than car unless made during particularly low-traffic periods, in large part because with a bike you can ride door-to-door with no need to find parking, and because you can filter through stopped traffic. Very rarely because the bike route is especially shorter, or avoids intersections.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:24 am

I would agee with what you say. I'm not sure what the issue is (if any).

Re. distances, many Dutch cities are very compact in size. For example this commute by David Hembrow from his village into the centre of Assen (pop'n. 65,000) - 5.4kms





wizdofaus wrote:I have to say though that seems a somewhat contrived example of a bike being faster than a car.

Why do you say that?

It is pretty typical of how the Dutch are designing and modifying their cities. Car use is discouraged by making intra-city use difficult (longer routes) while cycling journeys are made easier, more direct and utilise lanes, paths and many short cuts.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:22 am

il padrone wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:I am most often on paths from which I cross the road. And this design looks a litle like the layout some of the ramping from path to raod, but without the pinch-point ramping.

The design makes a cyclist about to cross at the point that he is first exposed to errant motorists coming through have to twist his neck well behind his shoulder the shoulder. Which is a difficult move to do with stability while moving and maintining a precise line (that is not even straight in this case).

I'm not sure whether you looked at the videos of the Dutch design. I'd doubt that there are any intersections laid out like this in the whole of Australia - certainly not a deliberate design.

1. Cyclists stop line is well in front of the motor vehicle stop line.
2. Altered kerb line makes motorists turn wider
3. Both cyclist and motorist are looking forward of 90 degrees to see each other, not over the shoulder
4. The applications of this at large intersections are light-controlled and often with a separate phase for cyclists.

Also, there is no 'ramping' of the bike lane - cyclists ride a level path. So as the narrator said, "By the time the cars get to the crossing the bikes are usually long gone".

Image
Corner islands provide a physical barrier automobiles must travel around when making a left turn, which allows bicyclists to be removed from automobiles at intersections. This also pushes the bicyclist out farther from the curb. This, in combination with a pushed back stop line for automobiles, allows the visibility between the entities to be greatly increased. Now, the automobile can see the bicyclists on its right with much less effort. This increased distance between the bicyclist and the automobile also gives the bicyclist a better chance of crossing the intersection before the automobile approaches to turn.

This “right hook” issue can also be lessened with strong pavement markings for the cycle track through the intersection. The shark’s teeth and elephant’s feet markings go a long way to alerting automobiles of the possibility that a bicyclist will be crossing there. Staggered traffic signal phasing between the bicyclists and automobiles will also allow the bicyclists more time in crossing before a conflict can arise.

From http://wiki.coe.neu.edu/groups/nl2011tr ... ba51e/107/

I must admit your needs are more critical Colin, but hardly anything like the norm, or even fairly common. Not to say they're not important, just more tricky to allow for. The Dutch do have a slightly more rigorous expectation that turning cars must give way to cyclists. We have the same towards pedestrians on all crossings whether marked or not. It's simply that police and other authorities don't enforce this nearly enough, and our driving culture ignores it most often. It'd be a very simple rule change to clearly require drivers turning to give way to cyclists in bike lanes.

Incidentally, a question. On a unicycle are you legally classed as a vehicle or a pedestrian? In Victoria I believe it must be as a pedestrian.

Victorian Road Rules wrote:bicycle means a vehicle with 2 or more wheels that is built to be propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears


Sorry Padre - I didn't make it clear - I was not referring to designs - just the similar effect in terms of how I have to track away from parallel to the road and then cross the cross road with my back somewhat away from traffic that is coming through. Where the ramp at the edge of the path is a bit around from the corner this is what I have to do and it seems to me that riders on the designed intersection shown would have to negotiate the intersection in a similar manner - facing somewhat away from drivers coming through at the time of entering the road it self and becoming vulnerable. And at the same time having to be curving back to be parallel with the road.

Sorta hard to explain without a diagram.

But certainly I did not mean to imply cycle-paths designed in the way shown. Just the similarity in negotiating what I experience all the time in getting across roads from paths.

Not that I have a better design. The simpler ones we see here have a different set problems.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby wizdofaus » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:32 pm

il padrone wrote:Why do you say that?
It is pretty typical of how the Dutch are designing and modifying their cities. Car use is discouraged by making intra-city use difficult (longer routes) while cycling journeys are made easier, more direct and utilise lanes, paths and many short cuts.

Which has something to be said for it, but I'd argue it's not necessary in the central/denser parts of a city like Melbourne anyway, as car use is already pretty difficult.

Installing Dutch-style intersections would already preference bikes over cars more than enough - a big problem with a lot of current left-turn lanes in Melbourne is the obvious design goal that cars shouldn't need to stop to make the turn (e.g. the turn off Heidelberg Rd into Hoddle St). For me that's not compatible with the idea that roads are for all forms of transport. It's traffic going straight ahead that should be able to continue without worrying about those going in other directions (accepting obviously you'll still have to stop at red lights now and then).
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby il padrone » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:46 pm

wizdofaus wrote:Which has something to be said for it, but I'd argue it's not necessary in the central/denser parts of a city like Melbourne anyway, as car use is already pretty difficult.

I think the Dutch are actually booting the cars out for non-essential travel to make the use of bicycles easier and safer, and to improve people's life in the city generally - quieter, less polluted air etc.

All would be great for Melbourne CBD too.
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Re: Cars turning left over a bicycle only lane

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:31 pm

il padrone wrote:
wizdofaus wrote:Which has something to be said for it, but I'd argue it's not necessary in the central/denser parts of a city like Melbourne anyway, as car use is already pretty difficult.

I think the Dutch are actually booting the cars out for non-essential travel to make the use of bicycles easier and safer, and to improve people's life in the city generally - quieter, less polluted air etc.

All would be great for Melbourne CBD too.


It might be difficult, but at this stage it's not enough to make the majority of smokeboxers consider alternates. Unfortuntely, it's been too good for them for too long.
I'd love to see a private vehicle congestion charge levied on all roads within a 1.5 to 2 km radius of the Hoddle grid with a 75% reduction for multi occupant vehicles (And a five year ban, confiscation of vehicle and $10k fine for people with simulacra in the passenger seat).
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