open letter to cycling advocates

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Dizz » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:21 pm

Aushiker wrote:




So, the red car F$^K-up, it happens, motorist make mistakes all the time. It was not malicious the cyclist was in no real danger, so once again what's your point?

Because in every other example I see you failing to understand the very principles of what proper lane control is and how it protects you.
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by BNA » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:29 pm

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby InTheWoods » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:29 pm

Dizz, are you saying that the last example (AB87NB or whatever the numberplate was), was the cyclists fault? What would you have done differently?
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:06 pm

Dizz wrote:I'm sorry Andrew but you failed, to apply proper lane control.

Seriously with a head-on car coming from the other direction and the road ahead about to narrow you failed to take pre-emptive precautions to ensure that you could not be overtaken! So you are not fully competent at applying proper lane control.

I see these mistake every other day, so what's your point?


Really? Damn I thought that bus bus passed after the car. Silly of me :roll:

Cheers
Andrew
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:13 pm

Dizz wrote:I didn't see the other videos before replying but nevertheless, it's not my fault if you are not proficient; it’s yours!


There you go, you "learn" something every day. Hope you don't mind if I don't take on board your "expertise" ... :wink:

Regards
Andrew
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:25 pm

Sorry people. It seems we're all morons "f#*%"ing it up for Dizz because of our lack of experience. Yes, even those with 30 years road riding experience, heavy vehicle tickets, and more time in the seat of countless types of vehicles including motorbikes. We must all apologise to Dizz for "f$&(AT)"ing up her riding experience.
The year I don't see a professional cyclist knocked off their bike and killed I'm sure Dizz will see them as equals.

It's always good to hear every second expert whinge about advocacy here as well I gotta say. We, like Aushiker, have been working on strengthening relations with the police in Qld for a while and with some degree of success but this thread is a prime example of how not to interrupt everyone's monologue while the critics are on a roll.
So I say Thankyou for your commitment Aushiker, you're really kicking goals lately and it's being noticed and applauded nationally even if you haven't been told so, and while I'm at it, Thankyou to me. Oh, thanks. No, you're welcome. Gosh, I'm all embarrassed now.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby high_tea » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:33 pm

Dizz wrote:I didn't see the other videos before replying but nevertheless, it's not my fault if you are not proficient; it’s yours!


If anyone has to ride in some very particular way to get treated right, that's a pretty big problem right there. If not doing it results in illegal behaviour and the police don't take action, that too is a pretty big problem.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:34 pm

Dizz wrote:So, the red car F$^K-up, it happens, motorist make mistakes all the time. It was not malicious the cyclist was in no real danger, so once again what's your point?


There you go .... clearly the WA Police disagree with you given the TINs issued ... :wink:

Didn't you say lane control was what it was all about early on? So I gather now it isn't ... ahh the fickle ...just cannot keep up with them.

Andrew
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:37 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Sorry people. It seems we're all morons "f#*%"ing it up for Dizz because of our lack of experience. Yes, even those with 30 years road riding experience, heavy vehicle tickets, and more time in the seat of countless types of vehicles including motorbikes. We must all apologise to Dizz for "f$&(AT)"ing up her riding experience.
The year I don't see a professional cyclist knocked off their bike and killed I'm sure Dizz will see them as equals.


[EDIT for clarity] He/she being Dizz is trolling IMO ...

It's always good to hear every second expert whinge about advocacy here as well I gotta say. We, like Aushiker, have been working on strengthening relations with the police in Qld for a while and with some degree of success but this thread is a prime example of how not to interrupt everyone's monologue while the critics are on a roll.


Good to see you are now adding road safety (i.e., Police) into your mix of advocacy. All the best with that.

Here in WA the BTAWA has now taken up the push for safe passing legislation ...hitting walls at the moment but, but if one keeps chipping away ...

Thanks also for your feedback.

Andrew
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:38 pm

InTheWoods wrote:Dizz, are you saying that the last example (AB87NB or whatever the numberplate was), was the cyclists fault? What would you have done differently?


This will be interesting :)

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:49 pm

high_tea wrote:If anyone has to ride in some very particular way to get treated right, that's a pretty big problem right there. If not doing it results in illegal behaviour and the police don't take action, that too is a pretty big problem.


That is a good point and really gets back to Jules opening post points IMO.

With respect to safe passing, I am now of the view that the issue is twofold in WA. First is the wording of the regulation which makes it difficult to establish an offence and (b) a lack of willingness for the Police to push it and test it in the Courts.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXxPN9ZwBdY&feature[/youtube]

This incident is one example of why I have come to this view as I thought I all the boxes in term of the regulation had been ticked. The Police response was that my natural handlebar movement from riding prior to the truck passing (I notice this in others videos as well) made it difficult to show that I actually had to take diverting action. At the time I couldn't be bothered pushing it futher but with reflection believe that I had I challenged this it may and it is a big may have gone further.

I think this is one illustration of the point Jules is making where there needs to be a proper police response.

On another matter ... yes I know there is a path there and I explain my reasoning for not riding it at the time here and yes it has no relevance to the point being made here.

Regards
Andrew
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:51 pm

Not trolling as such Aushiker. More of a case of simply fed up with the "experts" telling it like it is, and yet never having bothered getting off their butts and leading by example anywhere at all other than in here where they're safe, warm and sheltered.
Being told that the majority of cyclists today dont know how to ride is an absolute joke. The arrogance constantly astounds me.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:53 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Not trolling as such Aushiker. More of a case of simply fe up with the "experts" telling it like it is, and yet never having bothered getting off their butts and leading by exams anywhere at all other than in here where they're safe, warm and sheltered.
Being told that the majority of cyclists today dont know how to ride is an absolute joke. The arrogance constantly astounds me.


Sorry if I was not real clear, I was referring to Dizz not yourself with the troll comment ... I do think Dizz is trolling or have I misjudged the posts?

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:01 pm

We must realise as well that in many instances the police are hamstrung due to policy descisions, operational constraints and a thing called the law. It's not always that the police did nothing if a matter is investigated and little or no outcome Has resulted. They as aware as any if us that at times lives have been seriously put at risk, but they themselves are powerless to take effective action. Not in all cases, but a great deal.
We've all heard the odd story or two of the cyclists being run over ten times, bashed with tire irons, microwaved on high for 5 minutes and then burned at the stake for weighing more than a duck, and then charged with causing the accident by the fat sergeant even after video footage and ten eyewitness accounts to the contrary before, so there is reason for scepticism by cyclists.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby il padrone » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:12 pm

I really do tend to agree with Diz's basic premis. I ride wide on the road and over 99% of the time I would have no problems at all. The strategy does work, and work very well.

Out of interest, do you use a rear-view mirror Andrew. I find this is crucial to monitor traffic. At times I even see a driver coming close and a gentle veer to the right by me, as they approach, gives them the stress to :idea: take their overtaking seriously.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:40 pm

il padrone wrote:Out of interest, do you use a rear-view mirror Andrew.


Yes. Zefal spy mirrors on my three road bikes.

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Dizz » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:06 pm

InTheWoods wrote:Dizz, are you saying that the last example (AB87NB or whatever the numberplate was), was the cyclists fault? What would you have done differently?


Okay, fault is a loaded word because in an ideal world what I do should not be necessary. Here is my perspective of what happened and I will assume that the camera is accurately portraying the circumstance in regards to speed, distance and perspective.

The driver is a pr#$k and if you don’t want to be subjected to that you have to be an even bigger pr#$k. I’m not pretending that what I do is easy but of those cyclist that are struck in many cases the lucky ones are those that are killed instantly.

This is not a game, if you want to be drooling out of the side of your mouth staring at the ceiling; then by all means, continue to give an inch, there are no shortage of idiots that will take a mile. And remember this because it is so important, it will be deemed an “ACCIDENT”. Just exactly as if two vehicles had collided; because in the eyes of the law that’s ALL that happened… an “ACCIDENT” between two vehicles, it simply doesn’t matter that one was a non-motorised vehicle, it is completely irrelevant!

So what is your life worth to you? Is it worth being a militant pr#$k? or Are you still trying to be the “nice guy” that doesn’t upset anyone.

In many ways Andrew is almost there, now step it up! Be more aware of your surroundings; learn to scan your surroundings as opposed to looking. Always be conducting risk assessments; vehicles with the greatest momentum are the ones that pose the greatest risk to you and yet we don’t see you scanning behind yourself. Act on your peripheral information; riding out there is as much about control as it is about escape. You have at least 2m of lane to your left, so at the last moment hit the brakes and use it and they will miss you by a mile.

In addition there are other more advanced techniques that can be used to get a drive to snap out of their stupidity and use their brakes; never underestimate the power of the “wobbles”. The site of a cyclist that appears as though they are about to go down will scare most drivers into going for the brakes. Remember slow car good, fast car bad it’s all about Traffic Calming!

In short, 40+ years of riding and seeing your mates get hit one by one gives you a very different outlook, they were all “nice guys”, I never have been; I know what’s at stake and I value my life and I use my knowledge and bike skills to ensure that it stays that way.

Is it your fault… no! but by the same token it would not have happen to me. I would have scanned the danger zones, instinctively comparing it with the last scan, done the risk assessment and identified the potential offenders. Then I would begin to enact an appropriate strategy to help the idiot make a better choice. I have never said that it is simple and I understand why cyclist think that motorist are just out to get them but motorists are not evil; they are just caught-up in their own little world. Hating motorists will not keep you safe and nor will cowering in the gutter. But applying “PROPER LANE CONTROL” will provide you with the most effective strategy for maximising your safety!
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby il padrone » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:19 pm

I could add to that, always keep the pedals spinning even when you are feathering the brake for control. Pedals moving tells the driver that you are coming through; coasting with no pedal action tells the driver "He's slowing so I can dash through".

Jut a tip, not saying that Andrew was not doing this.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Dizz » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:24 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Dizz wrote:I'm sorry Andrew but you failed, to apply proper lane control.

Seriously with a head-on car coming from the other direction and the road ahead about to narrow you failed to take pre-emptive precautions to ensure that you could not be overtaken! So you are not fully competent at applying proper lane control.

I see these mistake every other day, so what's your point?


Really? Damn I thought that bus bus passed after the car. Silly of me :roll:

Cheers
Andrew


The fact that you do not have the experience to see what that means is not my fault.

The head-on car means that the bus could not change lanes to avoid you, when it might have made a difference. Hence the bus does as all motor vehicle do when given the choice, he squeezes you out instead.

Be delusional about it if you want but that’s what happened! It would not have happened to me!
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:42 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:We must realise as well that in many instances the police are hamstrung due to policy descisions, operational constraints and a thing called the law. It's not always that the police did nothing if a matter is investigated and little or no outcome Has resulted. They as aware as any if us that at times lives have been seriously put at risk, but they themselves are powerless to take effective action. Not in all cases, but a great deal..


I think you are right, well at least in the context of my experience with safe passing regulations here in WA. That said it would be more constructive in my view if they tested the law in Court rather than assuming it is not possible to prosecute.

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:45 am

il padrone wrote:I really do tend to agree with Diz's basic premis. I ride wide on the road and over 99% of the time I would have no problems at all. The strategy does work, and work very well.


I also tend to agree. Riding more assertively will reduce the close shaves. However in an ideal world cyclist should not have to do this to avoid close shaves.

InTheWoods wrote:Dizz, are you saying that the last example (AB87NB or whatever the numberplate was), was the cyclists fault? What would you have done differently?

If the cyclist was riding in the middle of the car lane then there is a good chance that incident would not have occurred. That is what I would have done differently.

Im not saying it was AusHikers fault in anyway. I saw a close female friend got hit in a similar circumstance. But certainly there are actions that can be taken to reduce the likelihood of those incidents.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby InTheWoods » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:00 am

human909 wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:Dizz, are you saying that the last example (AB87NB or whatever the numberplate was), was the cyclists fault? What would you have done differently?

If the cyclist was riding in the middle of the car lane then there is a good chance that incident would not have occurred. That is what I would have done differently.

Im not saying it was AusHikers fault in anyway. I saw a close female friend got hit in a similar circumstance. But certainly there are actions that can be taken to reduce the likelihood of those incidents.


In the video the rider is maybe 10cm to the left of the centre of the lane, which is about where Dizz said if you ride you'd never have any issues. The rider is then doing shoulder checks and seems to head left when the van is about to hit him. Hard to tell from the video though.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:27 am

On the topic on the police, we have an election coming up in March, so the WA Police Union has put forward its list of "demands", one of which includes a call for 800 extra police. Maybe from a cycling/road safety perspective that could be a good thing if we have more police on the road and hopefully the modern police officer comes in with a more in-tune attitude to road safety.

As an aside it was also interesting to note in their list of demands a call for...

Recommendation 7 Introduce ‘offender onus’ legislation that will make offenders accountable if a road user is killed or injured as a result of emergency driving.


Whilst this is from their perspective obviously it does have the potential to set a precedent for future legislative changes that could be more appropriate for vulnerable users.

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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby Xplora » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:00 am

I have to back up Dizz's posts... there is a lot you can do to control the traffic around you. You can easily manipulate the traffic to suit your needs. Car drivers are indeed a fearful lot. They know that if you are hit from behind and remain conscious, the rear car will be found at fault. They know that side by side that there is some grey, but if you hit their car that is an insurance claim. They know if they hit another car at all, it just cost them 500 bucks. They know they can't get around bikes is many situations.

You need to use this information to your advantage. There is no discussion that can occur unless you establish that you need to control the expectations of road users around you. We have horns and footpaths and lane markings and bells and lights to control road users. USE THEM. The wobble, the wide lane position, the head check, the hand signal, the subtle merge to occupy more lane, the pedalling, the cadence, it all sends signals to other people and they react. They are pretty dumb if they don't respond to it.

We can argue about the thresholds, and the exact application of such principles, but we can't avoid reality - you must control your surrounds as a vehicle or be a victim of them. You have to drive at 3am to never see a car. We are taught to drive by controlling our surrounds, and a bike isn't any different.

There are places on my commute which aren't safe, but I emphatically establish my presence at those moments to ensure that I'm not having to escape a car trying to establish their own. Chicanes are diabolical; you wouldn't hide in the gutter in a car safely, so how can you do the same on a much more exposed vehicle?! :shock:

Everyone in this thread is experienced, Aushiker simply posts the stuffups on video. This will always happen... we have to figure out how to minimise those stuffups becoming habits. Yes, I think policing is the key. Video evidence is great but we've found that even video might not hold up in court.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby high_tea » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:12 pm

I cannot see this discussion ever justifying the thuggish behaviour some motorists engage in, nor the police's apathy towards it. As for the evidentiary issues: hah! That's an excuse to file under "too hard". I accept that they have to choose their battles, but they choose "no battle at all" far too often and it shows. That's what I understand the OP to be getting at and all this talk about lane positioning and boasting about skill is beside the point.
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Re: open letter to cycling advocates

Postby jules21 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:20 pm

high_tea wrote:That's what I understand the OP to be getting at and all this talk about lane positioning and boasting about skill is beside the point.

thanks HT, yes it is beside the point.
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