2013 Cycling Fatalities

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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby zero » Mon May 27, 2013 11:30 pm

Ozkaban wrote:The second article seems to say he was crossing at a lights not riding along the road. The bus had a green light but they don't know if the boy had a walk signal or not. What isn't mentioned are details like if there was a green arrow, which would definitely mean a red for the boy or if there was no arrow, etc.


The crossing has no red turning arrow for the direction of travel of the bus, ie it has an extra permissive arrow for the scenario when the two right turn bays on bacchus marsh road are both turning, as its non conflicting with that movement. The front of the bus has carried 12m from the crossing, and was not conforming to the inside lane, which to me indicates the bus was likely travelling relatively fast, which makes me believe the boy would have been ahead of the bus prior to the collision, and thus plainly observable for the driver.

IMO the state of the pedestrian light is almost irrelevant to the driver, and I rarely notice the state of them whilst turning through a traffic light - depending on the direction of travel of the pedestrian, a driver cannot even see the relevant light. Vic rule 62 requires that a driver turning into an intersection gives way to any pedestrians on or about the footcrossing on the road they are turning into, and does not reference the lights shown to a pedestrian.

The state of the pedestrian light at this point only covers whether or not the boy also committed an offence or not. 11yos are allowed to use the footcrossing on a bicycle.
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by BNA » Tue May 28, 2013 8:29 am

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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby Ozkaban » Tue May 28, 2013 8:29 am

zero wrote:
Ozkaban wrote:The second article seems to say he was crossing at a lights not riding along the road. The bus had a green light but they don't know if the boy had a walk signal or not. What isn't mentioned are details like if there was a green arrow, which would definitely mean a red for the boy or if there was no arrow, etc.


The crossing has no red turning arrow for the direction of travel of the bus, ie it has an extra permissive arrow for the scenario when the two right turn bays on bacchus marsh road are both turning, as its non conflicting with that movement. The front of the bus has carried 12m from the crossing, and was not conforming to the inside lane, which to me indicates the bus was likely travelling relatively fast, which makes me believe the boy would have been ahead of the bus prior to the collision, and thus plainly observable for the driver.

IMO the state of the pedestrian light is almost irrelevant to the driver, and I rarely notice the state of them whilst turning through a traffic light - depending on the direction of travel of the pedestrian, a driver cannot even see the relevant light. Vic rule 62 requires that a driver turning into an intersection gives way to any pedestrians on or about the footcrossing on the road they are turning into, and does not reference the lights shown to a pedestrian.

The state of the pedestrian light at this point only covers whether or not the boy also committed an offence or not. 11yos are allowed to use the footcrossing on a bicycle.


Thanks for the info. I was on a smartphone and it was too much trouble to get streetview up. The absence of a green arrow is telling. The law in new was recently changed/strengthened/reinforced to state that
Giving way to pedestrians when turning at an intersection
When turning into a road at an intersection, a driver must give way to any pedestrian who may be crossing the particular road the driver is entering.
Penalty: 3 demerit points (4 in a school zone) and $298 ($397 in a school zone)"


Obviously this is NSW law not Vic to not applicable, though I imagine there would be something similar.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby zero » Tue May 28, 2013 8:50 am

There may have been a green arrow - its a 5 aspect signal. ie the bus driver cannot have overlooked a red arrow set against a straight green, because there is no red arrow fitted, only amber and green, and yes, rule 62 is that rule in Victoria.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby biker jk » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:26 pm

Cyclist killed by 4WD in Victoria. Very sad indeed. My condolences to his family.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/cyclists-death-brings-weekend-toll-to-four-20130602-2njja.html
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:21 pm

:cry:
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby yarravalleyplodder » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:29 am

not good

I am there nearly every weekend and I am shocked as I didnt think they were dangerous roundabouts in the basin but it can never end well when its a 4WD involved :(
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby zero » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:54 am

yarravalleyplodder wrote:not good

I am there nearly every weekend and I am shocked as I didnt think they were dangerous roundabouts in the basin but it can never end well when its a 4WD involved :(


The basic problem with the roundabouts on that road, is that they are opened up to allow fast negotiation. If someone wanted to drive through them at 60, they can, and if they do decide to drive through them at 60, they present a real and present danger to cyclists coming from the other way who are turning right, and to cyclists who started from a standing start from the left entrance. ie if someone enters the roundabout before a driver does, the driver has to give way to them, regardless of entrance used, and drivers intending on fast negotiation generally don't look left at all - they spend the entire time watching the right entrance relative to them.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby flex5150 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:20 am

My associates attended this collision. Older fellow in his 60's, he was heading down the road toward Bayswater and was unable to pull up in time to avoid the 4x4 that had entered the Liverpool rd roundabout. He struck the back of the vehicle. Witnesses alledge the speed of the bike at 60kph. I find this hard to believe at Liverpool! Perhaps at Forest as you come straight of the 1/20 but not Liverpool when you have had a chance to wash off speed and know a roundabout is coming up.
I would think more like 50 max. Needless to say on a wet road if he was on carbon wheels theres no way he would have pulled up in time if he didnt see the 4x4 until late. It was very wet around Melb yesterday morning, i got soaked on the way to Beach Rd.

At this stage the investigation is continuing.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby yarravalleyplodder » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:44 pm

approaching any roundabout at 50km in normal weather conditions has risks, in the wet is not what I would consider wise

I agree that the Liverpool rd roundabout does allow for any vehicle to maintain speed if gong straight but if someone is coming off Liverpool road and turning right they would slow down considerably

Not a good situation at all and its sad that as someone who also enjoys a sunday spin in the hills to think about a fellow rider who didnt make it home this time :(
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:55 pm

Another One :-(

A cyclist has been struck and killed by a car being driven by an elderly woman in Sydney's south-east.
The 35-year-old was riding alongside her husband shortly after 10.30am on Sunday morning when they were struck by a hatchback in Pagewood.
Paramedics treated both but the woman died at the scene, while her husband escaped with relatively minor injures.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclist-kille ... z2VgSzhf11
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby schroeds » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:09 pm

Awful news, I ride there all the time and considered that section to be pretty safe (compared to some of the full-on Sydney nightmare sections) . I guess we're never totally safe. :(
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby reefer » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:10 pm

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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:50 pm

reefer wrote:As above, from the ABC news:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-09/f ... od/4742638


The photo is horrible. The bike is totally destroyed, so this was no close shave. It looks like the car just drove straight over the top of her :-(
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby jgon286 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:29 pm

Bunnerong Rd is right at the end of my morning commute. I could name a dozen other locations where I would've expected this to happen. What else could these cyclists have done? Broad daylight. They had front and rear flashing lights and travelled together. I can only assume that riding alongside each other they took up the whole lane and made it harder to avoid the crash?

And she kept going for another 150m? Unbelievable. News reports state that she went on to hit a Beemer nose-to-tail afterwards. Keeping her licence? Think not!

And how's the news report make it like 'poor lady she was all shook up'... What about the husband watching it all happen in front of him? My condolences to him and his family. All they wanted to do I'm sure is enjoy a beautiful Sunday morning ride.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:39 pm

Looks like the driver's had a dementia incident. Continued on another 150m before colliding with another vehicle. I doubt she'll be charged, she probably had a blackout. :(

My dad had a similar incident in 2007 (fortunately no other vehicle involved, thank God) where he went shopping at 5:30pm, should have been back by 6:30, hadn't returned by 9:30pm when my mum (also a dementia sufferer) called it in. He was found at 5:30am the following morning 40km away crashed off the road hidden in a gully in a very confused state and unable to explain why he was there. I'm not sure if this is genuine or he was "reconstructing", but he described it as "everything suddenly going black" ... and he wasn't talking about an electrical failure of his headlights.

This was the first time I'd had any indication he was following mum down into the black hole. It was like he suddenly fell off the edge. Although, going back through his paperwork later, I saw that key things like bills for power, water and insurances were not being paid despite having a substantial bank account (the car insurance had lapsed) and his handwriting had deteriorated markedly.

I feel so sorry for both families. The woman killed and her husband, out enjoying a beautiful day. And the family of this woman, who are no doubt questioning themselves as to why they didn't see it coming. The driver herself? I just feel... blank.

That photo is just appalling. I hope she didn't suffer. :cry:
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby feral grasshopper » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:57 pm

trailgumby wrote:Looks like the driver's had a dementia incident.



I've cause to know well that the signs of dementia exist for many years and progression is certain and sure, it's not a 'sudden' medical condition. There is supposed to be an annual medical check from the age of 75 so I would be very interested to see what conclusions that the Coroner comes to in this case about the involvement of any medical practitioner.

I have no idea whether there is any family in this case but I would suggest that we all have a moral responsibility when we know our aged parents are deteriorating to encourage them not to drive (or even to insist that they don't, after all might we not be saving them from the most appalling knowledge that at the end of their lives they are responsible for the death or serious injury of others)

Accidents happen because of uncontrollable and unpredictable factors, this appalling incident with untold ramifications for all parties seems to me to be neither unpredictable nor uncontrollable
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby schroeds » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:25 pm

An eyewiteness said they had to pull out around the boat which had not been moved in years and people had complained to council to have it moved. I don't know if the boat forced them into he path of the old lady or not.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:46 pm

feral grasshopper wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Looks like the driver's had a dementia incident.

I've cause to know well that the signs of dementia exist for many years and progression is certain and sure, it's not a 'sudden' medical condition. There is supposed to be an annual medical check from the age of 75 so I would be very interested to see what conclusions that the Coroner comes to in this case about the involvement of any medical practitioner.

That is quite true. But often the progression is unseen, especially if you only have occasional contact with the person. Sometimes it's not until their abilities fall through a certain competence threshhold that you begin to take notice. For mum, I only noticed it a few years earlier when we stayed with her a week when Dad was in hospital getting a bypass done, and her usual ability to organise meals and "spoil" us as she loved to do was just totally AWOL. And she was asking the same question several times over. I hadn't seen it before. The kids were like, "what's wrong with grandma?" I was horrified she was still driving. That was when I wrote the doctor and asked that he write the police forthwith and request her license be withdrawn.

Until the disappearance and crash, to my casual observation Dad seemed to be coping, albeit with a little bit of stress from mum's late afternoon aggressive behaviour (common with Alzheimer's). Then, a bit over a month later, the crash. I had hoped it was a stroke, as there was some prospect of recovery, but no.

Doctors are sometimes reluctant to recommend withdrawal of driving privileges off their own bat because of the devastating impact on their independence, and don't act until a family member contacts them. Yet they also have a responsibility to the community. I would not want to be in their shoes.

And yes, having both parents come down with this in their 80s worries me considerably about my own prognosis.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby feral grasshopper » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:06 pm

trailgumby wrote:
feral grasshopper wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Looks like the driver's had a dementia incident.

I've cause to know well that the signs of dementia exist for many years and progression is certain and sure, it's not a 'sudden' medical condition. There is supposed to be an annual medical check from the age of 75 so I would be very interested to see what conclusions that the Coroner comes to in this case about the involvement of any medical practitioner.

That is quite true. But often the progression is unseen, especially if you only have occasional contact with the person. Sometimes it's not until their abilities fall through a certain competence threshhold that you begin to take notice. For mum, I only noticed it a few years earlier when we stayed with her a week when Dad was in hospital getting a bypass done, and her usual ability to organise meals and "spoil" us as she loved to do was just totally AWOL. And she was asking the same question several times over. I hadn't seen it before. The kids were like, "what's wrong with grandma?" I was horrified she was still driving. That was when I wrote the doctor and asked that he write the police forthwith and request her license be withdrawn.

Until the disappearance and crash, to my casual observation Dad seemed to be coping, albeit with a little bit of stress from mum's late afternoon aggressive behaviour (common with Alzheimer's). Then, a bit over a month later, the crash. I had hoped it was a stroke, as there was some prospect of recovery, but no.

Doctors are sometimes reluctant to recommend withdrawal of driving privileges off their own bat because of the devastating impact on their independence, and don't act until a family member contacts them. Yet they also have a responsibility to the community. I would not want to be in their shoes.

And yes, having both parents come down with this in their 80s worries me considerably about my own prognosis.


You are, of course, quite correct. It is complex and I was certainly not making reference to your situation, just a plea for some moral fibre and imagination from those in society who have influence, such as GPs, to consider more than what is in front of them but to consider the possible consequences. As a society, we need to do a whole lot more to provide options for our elderly and disabled so that the loss of a licence for instance is not such a devastating thing as it so often is now. It's very hard stuff, that poor cyclist has lost the chance to grow old :|
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:29 pm

schroeds wrote:An eyewiteness said they had to pull out around the boat which had not been moved in years and people had complained to council to have it moved. I don't know if the boat forced them into he path of the old lady or not.


The boat is an inanimate object. It is always the responsibility of the vehicle approaching from behind to avoid colliding with vehicles in front.
If the boat has been there for years, I am guessing that any local would know that.
It does appear from the rather distressing photo of the deceased cyclist and bike that the motorist has simply driven straight over the cyclists, one has been crushed between the car and the boat, and the other seems to have been carried past the boat. Both bikes were totally destroyed, and the motorist has subsequently collided with another car up the road.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby Goneforaride » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:17 pm

Photo in the Telegraph seems to show blood on the boat cleat that sticks out on the top rear of the boat. Cyclist may have snagged on the cleat and then got wheel caught in trailer mudguard, so boat may have been a factor. Too many of these large trailer boats left on main streets - shouldn't be allowed. Don't know if cyclists were well out in the traffic lane to avoid the boat, or coming out from the shoulder lane to go round the boat, but either way the boat could have been a factor.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby schroeds » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:40 pm

Is there not a minimum width vehicle that can park on the road?

There's another boat parked on the same loop ride, on Anzac Pde on the way back from Lapa to maroubra...regular riders will know it, it's been there forever, although I think it does get used.

Point is you have to enter the right lane to get past it which means merging with fast moving traffic. This presents an obstacle ie it is significantly wider than the line of cars parked either side (although it does not extend over the white line and into the next lane).

It can be a scary squeeze to get past it.... as it was for me just this morning.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:57 pm

schroeds wrote:Is there not a minimum width vehicle that can park on the road?

There's another boat parked on the same loop ride, on Anzac Pde on the way back from Lapa to maroubra...regular riders will know it, it's been there forever, although I think it does get used.

Point is you have to enter the right lane to get past it which means merging with fast moving traffic. This presents an obstacle ie it is significantly wider than the line of cars parked either side (although it does not extend over the white line and into the next lane).

It can be a scary squeeze to get past it.... as it was for me just this morning.

FFS! It's still effing there?!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:39 pm

It's such a different situation and rather than dementia, she could also have had a "mini-stroke" where she can be acutely confused and disorientated. Hard to know until a barrage of tests could be done. In any case, pulling a DL from an elderly is never easy. On the one hand we encourage the elderly to be independent and maintain their social circle, it'd often be impossible with cessation of their life-long car ownership. Further and to get a perspective, the number of accidents and fatalities caused by the elderly is far lower than that by alcohol. It'd make more sense to ban alcohol first than a knee-jerk over one accident.
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Re: 2013 Cycling Fatalities

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:08 pm

schroeds wrote:It can be a scary squeeze to get past it.... as it was for me just this morning.

I have a similar situation with the traffic parked outside Dan Murphy's at Manly Vale after coming off Burnt Bridge Ck Deviation cycle path. Inevitably I get caught by the lights and getting a gap to merge into the middle lane is extremely fraught. The lane is so narrow and people rarely park close to the kerb. I end up taking the footpath. Even though it is illegal.
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