Pedestrian red lights

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Pedestrian red lights

Postby Ross » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:32 pm

Is it actually illegal to walk across the road when there is a red pedestrian light? I see heaps of pedestrians do it, I was the only one out of fifteen people to actually wait for the green light the other day (not saying I'm Mr Goody Two Shoes, I have walked against the red before but trying not to do it these days).
Image
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3670
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:53 pm

by BNA » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:23 pm

BNA
 

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby trailgumby » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:23 pm

Not sure where to look for the regs, but my understanding is that you can cross where you like (safely) if you are further than 25m from a marked pedestrian crossing. If you are within 25m you are obliged to use the marked crossing, and in accordance with the lights if any.

Apparently yes you can be fined for crossing against the lights. There have been "blitzes" at various times where people have been fined ~$130 around North Sydney and the Sydney CBD ... after a couple of people were knocked down.

Like you I'm far from perfect with following the rules :oops:
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

http://www.facebook.com/Drive2WorkDay
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby find_bruce » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:33 pm

Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 :shock: - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby KonaCommuter » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:24 pm

"Jay Walking" was originally an insult from US motoring lobbies. A Jay being a slow witted person from a rural background. It was a successful attempt to portray people who crossed the road like they've done since roads were made, i.e. thousands of years, as being slow witted. Or so I've been led to believe.

So to cop to a "Jay Walking" charge is an acknowledgement of the motor vehicles supremacy on the public right of way that is known as a road.
2012 Oppy A4
User avatar
KonaCommuter
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:28 pm
Location: Brisbane Northside

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:20 pm

KonaCommuter wrote:"Jay Walking" was originally an insult from US motoring lobbies. A Jay being a slow witted person from a rural background.

Hi there, I'm from the country. My name is Jay :wink: .

Image
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18157
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby eeksll » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:12 pm

find_bruce wrote:Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 :shock: - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists


$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.
eeksll
 
Posts: 1275
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:36 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby find_bruce » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:15 am

eeksll wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 :shock: - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists


$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.

If you know anyone who has been told to pay the victims of crime levy for a penalty notice, I would be very interested to hear about it, because the levy is only payable on conviction by a court (s 78 Victims Support and Rehabilitation Act 1996)
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby ILMB » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:08 am

Beautiful photo IP
User avatar
ILMB
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:15 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:28 am

find_bruce wrote:
eeksll wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 :shock: - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists


$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.

If you know anyone who has been told to pay the victims of crime levy for a penalty notice, I would be very interested to hear about it, because the levy is only payable on conviction by a court (s 78 Victims Support and Rehabilitation Act 1996)


I would not be surprised if this happens regularly. Add the levy and pocket the cash if people pay, apologise and withdraw if they jack up.
People are too trusting of officialdom at times :(
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25552
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:37 am

ILMB wrote:Beautiful photo IP

Thanks. I didn't take it though, just a googled photo. No blue jays in Australia :wink:
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18157
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Summernight » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:27 pm

Is it the same when the pedestrian light hasn't been triggered for the light sequence but the traffic light itself (for the same direction as the ped) is green?

Obviously where there is no pedestrian light the ped walks on the corresponding traffic green, but are they still liable for the possible fine if they are obeying the correct traffic lights, just didn't press the ped button in time to get the green man with the green light?
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1508
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:50 pm

Yes.

Rule 231 is pretty clear. Red means stop, unless you've already started walking on a green.

231 Crossing a road at pedestrian lights

....(2) If the pedestrian lights show a red pedestrian light and the pedestrian has not already started crossing the intersection or road, the pedestrian must not start to cross until the pedestrian lights change to green.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18157
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Summernight » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:32 pm

Thank you. :)
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1508
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wellington_street » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:11 pm

IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.
wellington_street
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:27 pm

wellington_street wrote:IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

That popping noise you just heard was a vein in 'Arold Scrulooses neck. :twisted:

wellington_street wrote:And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.


Amen to that. Walked up to a set of lights with me daughter today. Pressed the button as the cross light went amber. No green man :roll: We made a risk assessment and became outlaws :(
Can't find me hair shirt, anybody willing to slip theirs off for just a little while?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25552
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby high_tea » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:09 pm

wellington_street wrote:IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.


This will not happen.
One, because it will not help traffic congestion.
Two, because there is a small chance it will make traffic congestion worse.

This reflects on the state of transport policy, not the idea. The idea seems fine to me.
high_tea
 
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:24 pm

high_tea wrote:
wellington_street wrote:IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.


This will not happen.
One, because it will not help traffic congestion.
Two, because there is a small chance it will make traffic congestion worse.

This reflects on the state of transport policy, not the idea. The idea seems fine to me.

It is my understanding that they have dealt with this issue in the Netherlands by setting shorter traffic light cycle times - down to as little as 15-20 seconds. This makes walking and cycling more advantageous in the road environment. This further encourages people to use bikes, walking and PT to get about. This reduces traffic congestion.

They also have pedestrian and cycle crossings that respond very quickly to a pressed button - again as little as 5-10 seconds. This is at all crossings, not just busy inner city locations. This reduces congestion.

Even this:


This reduces congestion.

Bing! :idea:
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18157
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby high_tea » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:57 pm

One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.
high_tea
 
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby human909 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:03 pm

high_tea wrote:One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.


:?:

Are you speaking about how it is or how it should be? :wink:
human909
 
Posts: 4726
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:12 pm

a QLDcop at the weekend, he was to book cyclists not "signaling" when riding.
Place must have had 4 trillion bikes in it ! :D

He was riding a quad bike through mooloolabah during the triathlon this weekend...

Only in America ? Pffft, only in Australia ! :D
User avatar
wurtulla wabbit
 
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:08 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby high_tea » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:15 pm

human909 wrote:
high_tea wrote:One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.


:?:

Are you speaking about how it is or how it should be? :wink:


Both. I contend that it is largely about traffic congestion here in Australia, and that it should not be. I was, you know, contrasting the two. It's a narrow point about a specific policy area that I've managed to make modulo bleating about freedom. I'm quite pleased about that. I wouldn't want to go being a hypocrite or anything, would I?

PS I am wearing Lycra as I post this. For the saddle sores. And a helmet, just in case I hit my head as I roll about laughing. You can't be too careful.

EDIT: fewer commas.
high_tea
 
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:30 pm

high_tea wrote:One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.

Moving more people, more safely, efficiently and timely - surely the definition of a real reduction to congestion. :?

I don't think about congestion solely in terms of cars parked on the freeway, or log-jamming the CBD streets. Freeing up capacity will involve less cars on the streets, but probably in less space and more space for other transport modes.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18157
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Ross » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:22 am

il padrone wrote:They also have pedestrian and cycle crossings that respond very quickly to a pressed button - again as little as 5-10 seconds. This is at all crossings, not just busy inner city locations. This reduces congestion.

Even this:


This reduces congestion.

Bing! :idea:


Looks like a nightmare to me. Riders coming from all directions and cutting in front of each other without signalling. I would personally avoid that intersection like the plague.
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3670
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby sogood » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:52 am

Ross wrote:Looks like a nightmare to me. Riders coming from all directions and cutting in front of each other without signalling. I would personally avoid that intersection like the plague.

It's all a question of expectation isn't it? We've all seen those intersection scenes from the busiest of Far East/Indian subcontinent cities. The fact that everyone expected it and adjust accordingly, there's little trouble. However, when someone goes beyond the expectation of others, accidents happen. Similar to our environment where rules come foremost. When people go beyond those stated traffic rules and behave unexpectedly, accidents happen. You just need to adjust and behave like a Roman when in Rome.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16898
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Summernight » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:23 am

They have a 'simultaneous green junction' type situation at the corner of Flinders Street and Elizabeth Street in Melbourne (right outside the Flinders Street Station) for pedestrians. It is a T-intersection for cars with a tram stop in the middle on the Elizabeth side. The whole intersection is red lighted for cars and peds go everywhere. It works.

They have also implemented another one of these near AAMI park. Pedestrians have no problems. I don't see why there would be a difference with bicycles if everyone is aware and no-one is hooning.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?saddr=E ... 8,,0,16.04
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1508
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Next

Return to Cycling Safety and Advocacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU



InTouch with BNA
“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter