Pedestrian red lights

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:47 am

Ross wrote:Looks like a nightmare to me. Riders coming from all directions and cutting in front of each other without signalling. I would personally avoid that intersection like the plague.

Seems like you would not survive too well then in the highest-volume, best-infrastructure cycling cities on the planet then. Negotiated low-speed cycling interaction is very much the norm.... and very safe.

User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

by BNA » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 am

BNA
 

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 am

il padrone wrote:
Ross wrote:Looks like a nightmare to me. Riders coming from all directions and cutting in front of each other without signalling. I would personally avoid that intersection like the plague.

Seems like you would not survive too well then in the highest-volume, best-infrastructure cycling cities on the planet then. Negotiated low-speed cycling interaction is very much the norm.... and very safe.


Are there really *no* higher speed cyclists, that would more appropriately ride along with motorised traffic? I do marvel at the levels of bicycling they have, but I know I'd find being stuck at the speed most of the cyclists go a little frustrating. Being able to set PRs on my commute is half the fun :-)
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:55 am

sogood wrote:We've all seen those intersection scenes from the busiest of Far East/Indian subcontinent cities. The fact that everyone expected it and adjust accordingly, there's little trouble.


...but that's not really true. The accident stats for such countries are often pretty horrifying. I'm not suggesting that's the case for pedestrian & bicycle only intersections in Europe however (they're nowhere near as busy, and only 2 modes of transport - both non-motorised - vs the countless modes you see in big Indian cities especially).
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:57 am

These free for all intersections work fine for non motorised traffic because the lack of a tonne or two of armour plate drives co operation over competition. It might not be the fastest way from A to B but it's actually very relaxing once you become a part of the flow. I quite enjoy riding Southbank because of it. It took me some time to get from Swan St bridge to Webb bridge during Moomba last week but I only had to put a foot down once and that was at the Clarendon St lights 8)
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25554
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:02 pm

wizdofaus wrote:
sogood wrote:We've all seen those intersection scenes from the busiest of Far East/Indian subcontinent cities. The fact that everyone expected it and adjust accordingly, there's little trouble.


...but that's not really true. The accident stats for such countries are often pretty horrifying. I'm not suggesting that's the case for pedestrian & bicycle only intersections in Europe however (they're nowhere near as busy, and only 2 modes of transport - both non-motorised - vs the countless modes you see in big Indian cities especially).

Most of the reason for the high road death rates in less-developed countries is because of the conflict between motor vehicle traffic and people on foot or bike (or animal). I really doubt that 'bike on bike' collisions are a source of high road deaths in India :roll:

The Dutch 'all-directions green' is designed to advantage cyclists and halt the motor vehicles.


Re. faster riders - yes I believe there are - people on e-bikes, riders in velomobiles, and the dreaded small motorbikes are allowed on bike paths at 20-30kmh (a bit of a concern over there).

Most people only commute 5-10kms maximum, mostly just 5kms, so a fast road bike and getting all suited up in lycra is a bit pointless. I believe that a proportion of those people you see riding roadsters will get out on the road bike on more open roads and rural bike paths at the weekend. But most commuters are not road racers, they just ride a bike because it works for them, it's the quickest, easiest way to get about. The authorities have worked to make it this way.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby eeksll » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:14 pm

find_bruce wrote:
eeksll wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 :shock: - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists


$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.

If you know anyone who has been told to pay the victims of crime levy for a penalty notice, I would be very interested to hear about it, because the levy is only payable on conviction by a court (s 78 Victims Support and Rehabilitation Act 1996)


Just asked my mate and he is 100% sure he got slugged it, I really only remember it cause I remember saying it can't be that much and he was like its over $100 cause of the victims of crime levy.

I have also had to pay a victims of crime levy for driving unlicensed fine.
eeksll
 
Posts: 1275
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:36 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:16 pm

Crossing the road is a crime?? :shock: Who was the victim??


Hmm, seems that it is practiced in some states, if you can believe the Feral Hun

The levy in South Australia is $120 for serious indictable offences, $70 for less serious matters and $20 on top of fines paid for infringement notices.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:27 pm

il padrone wrote:But most commuters are not road racers


I don't think I would ever expect that to be the case anywhere! Just wondering if *any* commuters are...
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:31 pm

wizdofaus wrote:
il padrone wrote:But most commuters are not road racers


I don't think I would ever expect that to be the case anywhere! Just wondering if *any* commuters are...


Anyone read Dutch?

http://www.intercityfietser.nl/PS2011/
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:38 pm

Google Translate does it

No data on the numbers of long distance commuters versus "Ordinary cyclists" though.


wizdofaus wrote:
il padrone wrote:But most commuters are not road racers


I don't think I would ever expect that to be the case anywhere! Just wondering if *any* commuters are...

What I meant by the above comment was that most of those commuters you see do not ride road racing bikes, even in an alter-ego on the weekend. They just ride for transport, that is all.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby human909 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:02 pm

wizdofaus wrote:Are there really *no* higher speed cyclists, that would more appropriately ride along with motorised traffic?


There are plenty of high speed road cyclists in the Netherlands. On the weekend they get out on the road or high speed paths and ride long and fast on their road bikes and wearing Lycra. This crowd is vastly outnumbered by the rest of the cyclists who the use of bicycles primarily for transport and pootle along at safe and non sweaty speeds on practical city bikes. In fact the high speed lycra road warriors are often indistinguishalble from the regular cyclist during the week as they also own city bikes.

Blasting through intersections at high speed isn't necessary for fast and efficient transport. What is necessary is to ensure the time stopped in traffic is kept to a minimum.

Most cyclists Dutch cyclists who wish to travel long distances will simply ride to the nearest train station. It is no uncommon to work in an entirely different town from where you live and use bicycles as methods to get to and from the fast and efficient train system.
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:49 pm

human909 wrote:Most cyclists Dutch cyclists who wish to travel long distances will simply ride to the nearest train station. It is no uncommon to work in an entirely different town from where you live and use bicycles as methods to get to and from the fast and efficient train system.


I have that option here but I prefer to ride (almost 20 km) because I enjoy it more (and would even if our train system was similarly fast and efficient, as in that case there'd probably be less car traffic on the road to hold me up too!). Just curious that I've never seen footage/photos from those parts of the world with higher-speed cyclists risking it with the traffic - that would probably be me if I lived there!
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:56 pm

wizdofaus wrote:Just curious that I've never seen footage/photos from those parts of the world with higher-speed cyclists risking it with the traffic - that would probably be me if I lived there!

I think that in the case of longer distance commutes out of town, the bike paths are still so good with priority over side roads that no-one much rides on the road. But I've not been there so don't really know.

User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Summernight » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:32 pm

:shock:

That looks like heaven.
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:36 pm

User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:37 pm

Summernight wrote::shock:

That looks like heaven.


See to me, heaven is coasting past an endless line of stuck cars :-)

Actually it all seriousness there's not much I'd change about my current commute - it's a good distance, lots of interesting possible routes, and if I need to take the train instead I can. But having tried both a few times, I much rather doing it at 30 k/h on my roadie in cycling gear than on my commuter bike at <25 k/h in casual clothes.
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:05 pm

il padrone wrote:What worked in the Netherlands to make the changes (and it didn't take them 40 years).


That second one's a great link - I followed it through to http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... afety.html which ended

"Per km travelled, the Dutch cyclists above are 3x less likely to die and 4x less likely to be injured than those in the UK, 5x less likely to be killed and 30x less likely to be injured than in the USA (statistics found here, page 506). Read more about the safety of cyclists in the Netherlands."

Which I'd think pretty conclusively demonstrates that cycling should and can be much safer transport option than driving.
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:11 pm

wizdofaus wrote:I much rather doing it at 30 k/h on my roadie in cycling gear than on my commuter bike at <25 k/h in casual clothes.

Did you actually look at the video of that Dutch bike path ride??

David Hembrow was doing a good bit more than 25kmh, and certainly not on a roadster. 5.2 kms of his commute at average speed of 36kmh in the Sinner Mango.

Image


BTW, you and I are cycling enthusiasts, who will ride regardless. Most non-enthusiast people who may be persuaded to ride for transport will not want, be equipped, nor be able to ride at a sustained 30kmh. These are the folks we need to get back on bikes :idea:


David Hambrow wrote:Reductions in speed and volume of traffic always help. All residential streets and a third of the entire road network has a 30 km/h (18 mph) speed limit or lower.

You won't be going too much faster on the road with your road bike in the Netherlands anyway :wink:
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:23 pm

Summernight wrote::shock:

That looks like heaven.

Don't it... Get a Bakfiets for the big shopping run and the smokebox will end up covered in cobwebs and bird poo.
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25554
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby wizdofaus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:32 pm

il padrone wrote:
wizdofaus wrote:I much rather doing it at 30 k/h on my roadie in cycling gear than on my commuter bike at <25 k/h in casual clothes.

Did you actually look at the video of that Dutch bike path ride??


Well sure, I'd love to have the sort of infrastructure etc. that made that option realistic too. Mainly, like you, I want to see more infrastructure in Melbourne that encourages casual cyclists, and as I've said before, I prefer it when there's a dedicated bike lane, knowing I'll usually have it to myself and it gives me a clear path to do the speed I prefer. If we ever get to the stage that the number of other cyclists on the roads means I have to slow down significantly, it's a good a problem to have.
wizdofaus
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 am
Location: Kensington, Melbourne, VIC

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby KonaCommuter » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:38 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:a QLDcop at the weekend, he was to book cyclists not "signaling" when riding.
Place must have had 4 trillion bikes in it ! :D

He was riding a quad bike through mooloolabah during the triathlon this weekend...

Only in America ? Pffft, only in Australia ! :D




I do hope that the ticket was only for when cyclists failed to indicate when they were turning right because that is the only signal cyclists are obliged to give according to the Qld Governments own site http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Trave ... ochure.pdf
User avatar
KonaCommuter
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:28 pm
Location: Brisbane Northside

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:42 pm

wizdofaus wrote:If we ever get to the stage that the number of other cyclists on the roads means I have to slow down significantly, it's a good a problem to have.

The Copenhageners have that problem on some of their lanes. They have just recently taken another road lane on these routes* to double the width of their blue lanes

:D :mrgreen:

* The main cycling street in Copenhagen has 36,000 cyclist movements per day :shock: !
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby g-boaf » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:45 pm

Summernight wrote::shock:

That looks like heaven.


Well, you can rest easy - it is never, ever going to happen here.

If you do want it to happen, then vote for the Greens (or a similar type of party), rather than the two main right-wing parties. While the status quo remains, nothing will change. The both need to be decimated at the elections for the whole political, media and lobbying landscape to change.

Only then might you have a chance of something so radical and un-Australian ever happening.

This has been a rant authorised by nobody. From someone fed up and worn-down by politics. Yes, I'm bitter and angry, because we are frittering away huge amounts of money on what is effectively vote-buying. A new motorway tunnel here and there, some more lanes on an existing motorway, etc. It's a waste of money. We have enough room for those kinds of paths to be built. We just have lazy, spineless governments who won't do anything radical or innovative.
g-boaf
 
Posts: 3828
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby Summernight » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:02 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Summernight wrote::shock:

That looks like heaven.


Well, you can rest easy - it is never, ever going to happen here.

If you do want it to happen, then vote for the Greens (or a similar type of party), rather than the two main right-wing parties. While the status quo remains, nothing will change. The both need to be decimated at the elections for the whole political, media and lobbying landscape to change.

Only then might you have a chance of something so radical and un-Australian ever happening.

This has been a rant authorised by nobody. From someone fed up and worn-down by politics. Yes, I'm bitter and angry, because we are frittering away huge amounts of money on what is effectively vote-buying. A new motorway tunnel here and there, some more lanes on an existing motorway, etc. It's a waste of money. We have enough room for those kinds of paths to be built. We just have lazy, spineless governments who won't do anything radical or innovative.


Why do you think Adam Bandt was voted in at the last election in my electorate? :wink:

I went to some of the meet-the-candidate evenings. It was an eye opener who of the candidates bothered to turn up and who didn't and who spoke well.
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Pedestrian red lights

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:29 am

"Steer away, steer away Jim-boy! There be dragons laddie."



Politics will get you a mod reprimand :o
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18161
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Previous

Return to Cycling Safety and Advocacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU



InTouch with BNA
“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter