Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby human909 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:15 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:So a question, zero, would you be happy to stick with that statement and ride on autoroutes, autostradale, autobahnen ans autovias in Europe where The Italians, French, Spanish et al routinely drive at 150km/h and the Germans at 200km/h?


How is it more dangerous than riding on an 80kph or 100kph road here?
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by BNA » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:40 pm

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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:40 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:So a question, zero, would you be happy to stick with that statement and ride on autoroutes, autostradale, autobahnen ans autovias in Europe where The Italians, French, Spanish et al routinely drive at 150km/h and the Germans at 200km/h?

Personally I'm less concerned with autovia (freeway) issues and more about things like this:

Cyclists should preferably use the right edge of the right lane on roads with a speed limit of less than 50 kph and facilitate overtaking by faster motor vehicles.


Why do you think this is in any way necessary? The very right edge of a lane...... on 30 and 40kmh roads????

This sort of rule is what I mean by a "raft of rule changes to disadvantage cyclists" :roll:
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby sogood » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:43 pm

il padrone wrote:It may seem surprising, but you are not far from the truth!!

Copenhagenize wrote:The sad fact is that Copenhagen is the only city in the western world where cycling levels are falling. We're now at 35%, according to the City of Copenhagen. Before bike helmet promotion started in January 2008 we were at 37%. We predicted this back in January 2009.

Given cycle theory and the 2% variation, I'd say it's well within reason.
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:44 pm

Does Spain have the minimum passing distance rule?.
I didn't realize that it was 1.5m here in France with a lose of 3 demerit points. No wonder cars would rather have a head on than get to close to use.
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby sogood » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:45 pm

il padrone wrote:.....nor to the community health generally.

Any evidence that the Dutch are healthier? Shame their tobacco habits have probably smothered any theoretical benefits.
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby sogood » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:47 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I didn't realize that it was 1.5m here in France with a lose of 3 demerit points. No wonder cars would rather have a head on than get to close to use.

It's actually just you! Which driver wants to break their front fender?
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:14 pm

sogood wrote:
il padrone wrote:.....nor to the community health generally.

Any evidence that the Dutch are healthier? Shame their tobacco habits have probably smothered any theoretical benefits.

Ah, so that's a medical opinion eh? Physical fitness and activity will not help with reducing obesity at all, so we can just sit back and relax in our SUVs munching into a Macca's.

Nice to know our medical profession supports the nice corporations.

:P :?: :roll:
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby sogood » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:59 pm

il padrone wrote:Ah, so that's a medical opinion eh? Physical fitness and activity will not help with reducing obesity at all, so we can just sit back and relax in our SUVs munching into a Macca's.

Nice to know our medical profession supports the nice corporations.

Naughty Pete! Twisting factual points and introducing irrelevant factors.

Let's start again,

Fact 1: Cycling and any form of exercise within limits are beneficial to health.
Fact 2: Dutch has a high percentage of active cyclists within their society.
Fact 3: Tobacco smoking is detrimental to health.
Fact 4: Tobacco smoking is prevalent in Netherlands, as for most Euroland countries.

As such, the logical outcome is a lot of normal weight patients with various tobacco related health issues, potentially defeating any benefits of gained by exercise and weight control.

Based on a quick Google of life expectancies,
Netherlands - 80.7 years
Australia - 81.7 years
(World Bank 2010 data)

Now, only if the dutch would control their tobacco habit to truly demonstrate their health gains through cycling...
Last edited by sogood on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:04 pm

Ergo, your example is clouded.

Regardless of any Dutch health data, I would still maintain that greater activity levels (cycle commuting, walking) are of community health benefit - and that's before factoring in the reduced motor vehicle exhaust emissions.
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby sogood » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:11 pm

il padrone wrote:Ergo, your example is clouded.

Regardless of any Dutch health data, I would still maintain that greater activity levels (cycle commuting, walking) are of community health benefit - and that's before factoring in the reduced motor vehicle exhaust emissions.

As if your tangent weren't! :P

As in all my posts, there's no denying that increased exercise is associated with societal health benefits. It was never a point of argument. But let's not portray Netherlands and similar high cycling utilisation countries as some health utopia. The story isn't that simple and a pick up in cycling in society will not suddenly eradicate all health problems of a society. There's just a realistic limit on how far this line of argument can go by using Netherlands and Scandinavian countries.

And just read this... "Over 40% of the Dutch population is too fat"
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ulatio.php

Oh, oh! :roll:

But still not bad compared to Australia's 63%, assuming similar criteria.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/nations- ... 28f6t.html
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby RonK » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:33 pm

sogood wrote:As in all my posts, there's no denying that increased exercise is associated with societal health benefits. It was never a point of argument. But let's not portray Netherlands and similar high cycling utilisation countries as some health utopia. The story isn't that simple.

Sogood, wash your mouth out with soap. ;) Such heresy - you cannot blaspheme the holy grail of cycling in that way :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:49 pm

sogood wrote:But let's not portray Netherlands and similar high cycling utilisation countries as some health utopia....
......and a pick up in cycling in society will not suddenly eradicate all health problems of a society.

Where did I ever say that, in this thread? Or even in any other for that matter??

You responded to my post stating that more cycling and activity was better for individual and community health. How is this flawed? I am talking about a ceteris paribus situation, so introducing the variation of greater smoking is ......... just daft!!
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby sogood » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:28 pm

RonK wrote:Sogood, wash your mouth out with soap. ;) Such heresy - you cannot blaspheme the holy grail of cycling in that way :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, guilty as charged. :oops:
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:47 pm

AUbicycles wrote:Except the Canary Islands, I didn't see the same level of interest in Cycling in mainland Spain compared with Italy for example. (But have only been to a few cities).

Agree about the highways, not the kind of place you would want to cycle.

Helmets would have an impact, and if this were to be regulated they would need to define the safety standards otherwise you could put an ice cream container on your head and call it a helmet.

They're too fashion conscience to wear a lid.

Gran canaria is all about wind surfing, that's where they do world championships etc.
Las Americas is all tourism(well, they all are to an extent) and fuerteventura is also tourism.

The canarians drive jut as bad as the spanish(they aren't Spanish ) the scooter riders are mental :D
Only worse place I've been for them is greece(kavos, paphos and Rhoda )
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:52 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Does Spain have the minimum passing distance rule?.
I didn't realize that it was 1.5m here in France with a lose of 3 demerit points. No wonder cars would rather have a head on than get to close to use.


To be honest, I've never seen so many people hung up on technical spec of road rules than Australians.
Really, I couldn't tell you what the width is in Scotland, England,, wales, Ireland,France, Spain, Germany and I've worked or holidayed in all of them.

They go by the "commonsensical " approach.

I very much doubt that rule in France is even known by most road users.
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:55 pm

I'd be much happier with a "change the bloody lane to go past, ya mug" rule :P
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:04 pm

There's a hand signal for that isn't there ? ;)
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby Nobody » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:19 pm

sogood wrote:And just read this... "Over 40% of the Dutch population is too fat"
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ulatio.php

Oh, oh! :roll:

But still not bad compared to Australia's 63%, assuming similar criteria.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/nations- ... 28f6t.html
Maybe it's all that smoking that's keeping the Dutch thinner. :P
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Re: Spain embarks on anti-cycling laws

Postby zero » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:35 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:So a question, zero, would you be happy to stick with that statement and ride on autoroutes, autostradale, autobahnen ans autovias in Europe where The Italians, French, Spanish et al routinely drive at 150km/h and the Germans at 200km/h?


To get to my folks place, I must ride 10kms including a bridge with no shoulders on a 110km/hr road, on the wrong side of the town where the cops don't sit, in a country where the Government has introduced b-doubles and is itching to introduce b-triples, at night. If I chose to visit a friend from way back when we went to the same school, I'd be looking at a 50km round trip on such a road. If someone can't drive properly on that, its all the same as someone that can't drive properly on an autobahn.

If one takes a public road and rebuilds it to autostrada / autobahn standard and thus excludes some vehicles, one must provide a clear, express road for the excluded vehicles. Ie I would use the M7 shared path in preference to the M7 yes ?

In any case, much of their rules appear to effect roads where the rules should in fact require primacy for the bicycle. ie there is nothing but idiocy in enshrining rules intended to encourage motorists squeezing past bicycles, honestly if you are so inclined to hog the road that you must bring a vehicle that is twice as wide as necessary for the load carried (as 90% of motorists do), on a road that it only barely fits past oncoming traffic, then IMO tough luck.
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