Another fatality, Cairns today

AndrewBurns
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby AndrewBurns » Mon May 13, 2013 1:22 pm

human909 wrote:
Which I see as a total imbalance of justice. The same often occurs even if cyclists aren't involved. Incompetent driving leading to death BAC<0.05 equals life continues as normal. Incompetent driving leading to death BAC>0.05 equals ten year prison sentence. :roll:

Personally I don't see it quite so black and white.



It's more about what can be proven in court. There is no law mandating a minimum level of driver ability (beyond a test to get your license once) and no simple way to test and quantify driving ability after an accident. There is however a law mandating the maximum amount of alcohol in your blood while driving and it is easy to test for and prove. It's not that one is more important than the other, just that one is easy to prove and the law is a lazy thing.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby human909 » Mon May 13, 2013 1:56 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:It's more about what can be proven in court. There is no law mandating a minimum level of driver ability (beyond a test to get your license once) and no simple way to test and quantify driving ability after an accident. There is however a law mandating the maximum amount of alcohol in your blood while driving and it is easy to test for and prove. It's not that one is more important than the other, just that one is easy to prove and the law is a lazy thing.


Yes once you start excluding the collision itself as evidence of gross negligence then you are not left with much. :roll:

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby Ken Ho » Mon May 13, 2013 5:56 pm

I can see the "value" of the DUI charge here.
I also agree with a lot of other comments here, including the imbalance of justice thing, and "the law is a lazy thing".
It was proven to be so recently in teh Pollett case, but maybe this time things will go the other way.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby gorilla monsoon » Mon May 13, 2013 6:02 pm

The value of DUI is two-fold.
In the first instance it allows for a mimimum point from which a judgement can be made and asentence passed. In the second, it gives the prosecution a base from which to launch other charges stemming from it.
Coldolences, by the way, to the young lady's family and friends for their very sad and terribly tragic loss. We all deserve to come home after our morning ride.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby oxonabike » Mon May 13, 2013 6:49 pm

A perspective offered by a local Cairns blogger. Not your usual run of commenters either (mostly)

http://bit.ly/10DoHQL
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby AndrewBurns » Mon May 13, 2013 7:07 pm

Absolutely no sympathy for drink drivers, we all know how often drink driving results in fatalities, anybody who does it is advertising that they don't give a damn about human life. Imo penalties for being caught should much harsher and the police should breath test problem times and places much more often.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby high_tea » Mon May 13, 2013 8:39 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:The value of DUI is two-fold.
In the first instance it allows for a mimimum point from which a judgement can be made and asentence passed. In the second, it gives the prosecution a base from which to launch other charges stemming from it.

I don't see how. They're probably gone for all money on the DUI (which is a good thing), but the more serious charges have to be made out on their own.

Intoxication is a circumstance of aggravation to dangerous driving(see s328A of the Criminal Code Act 1899(Qld)), but that's not the same thing as DUI being "a base from which to launch".

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon May 13, 2013 10:29 pm

If you live in FNQ and can make it, I'd appreciate you being able to show your support. At times like this we are a family.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby human909 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:54 pm

I think the book should be thrown at anybody whose carelessness kills another on the roads regardless of whether they are drunk or not. I don't see why being careless while drink is worse than being careless while sober. Besides BAC of 0.76 isn't even "drunk" and is within legal limits in some countries.

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon May 13, 2013 11:00 pm

+1
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby KonaCommuter » Tue May 14, 2013 5:08 am

high_tea wrote:
gorilla monsoon wrote:The value of DUI is two-fold.
In the first instance it allows for a mimimum point from which a judgement can be made and asentence passed. In the second, it gives the prosecution a base from which to launch other charges stemming from it.

I don't see how. They're probably gone for all money on the DUI (which is a good thing), but the more serious charges have to be made out on their own.

Intoxication is a circumstance of aggravation to dangerous driving(see s328A of the Criminal Code Act 1899(Qld)), but that's not the same thing as DUI being "a base from which to launch".



Queensland jurers have shown that the only dangerous driver they'd CONSIDER finding guilty would be a P-plater doing donuts at a child care centres playground and even then it'd be touch and go depending on the make of the car.


Wake up Australia, a celebrity admits to using their car as a weapon and the public turn on the victim and the Police tells them to sort it out between themselves and you want to look down your noses at other countries?
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby Ken Ho » Tue May 14, 2013 8:14 am

Which would be the source of my comments in the other thread.

There will be lots of emotive commentary on this though. Pretty girl vs drunk male teenager. Tht should not matter, but it's not about justice, more about games.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby oxonabike » Tue May 14, 2013 12:04 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:If you live in FNQ and can make it, I'd appreciate you being able to show your support. At times like this we are a family.



Yep, I'll be doing this ride. Ping Stinhambo? JessicaAlba?
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby JessicaAlba » Tue May 14, 2013 6:44 pm

oxonabike wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:If you live in FNQ and can make it, I'd appreciate you being able to show your support. At times like this we are a family.



Yep, I'll be doing this ride. Ping Stinhambo? JessicaAlba?


Absolutely.

Will be along with a mate with whom I ride each week. See you there.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby oxonabike » Tue May 14, 2013 7:04 pm

This is from the once local News Limited rag in relation to the tragedy, which is probably the most sensiblest thing I've ever seen in that paper.

Forensic crash unit Officer-in-Charge John Fisher reinforced the danger for cyclists on the roads and demanded motorists take proper responsibility.
"It's just not good enough to turn around and say 'well I'm a car driver, I own the road'. They don't," he said.
"The roads are there for everybody and we all have to take responsibility for what we do on the roads and just because you're not speeding doesn't mean to say you're not going to badly injure someone or possibly kill them.
"It is a privilege to drive, it's not a right.
"When you have a car strike either a cyclist or a pedestrian, it invariably is going to end up with serious injuries to the cyclist or the pedestrian rather than the car."


@JessicaAlba: I'll keep an eye out. I believe there will be over 2000 participating. A fair amount of care will need to be taken in a mob this size.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby human909 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:16 pm

oxonabike wrote:This is from the once local News Limited rag in relation to the tragedy, which is probably the most sensiblest thing I've ever seen in that paper.

Forensic crash unit Officer-in-Charge John Fisher reinforced the danger for cyclists on the roads and demanded motorists take proper responsibility.
"It's just not good enough to turn around and say 'well I'm a car driver, I own the road'. They don't," he said.
"The roads are there for everybody and we all have to take responsibility for what we do on the roads and just because you're not speeding doesn't mean to say you're not going to badly injure someone or possibly kill them.
"It is a privilege to drive, it's not a right.
"When you have a car strike either a cyclist or a pedestrian, it invariably is going to end up with serious injuries to the cyclist or the pedestrian rather than the car."


@JessicaAlba: I'll keep an eye out. I believe there will be over 2000 participating. A fair amount of care will need to be taken in a mob this size.


With an attitude like that im surprised he wasn't kicked out of the police force long ago! :twisted:

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby JessicaAlba » Wed May 15, 2013 8:15 pm

Sitting at a busy intersection this morning, on my way to work, there is a bike lane that divides the left turning (vehicular) lane and the straight through, in which I was positioned. 20 something lad on a bike, no helmet, no hands, straight through the red light, swerves to avoid a car or two and continues through the intersection. I honestly wanted to get out of my car once I'd caught up to him and punch him square in the face...

In my eyes, this is a complete disrespect to cyclists that abide by the road rules, yet meet the kind of fate that Tanya Roneberg did on Saturday morning. I would not wish death upon anyone, by why is it that she is no longer with us and *********s like this bloke are...? It is wrong. Just wrong.

A mate's missus is a CSI cop (no, not the TV show)...I found out tonight the details of the accident on Saturday...words cannot describe how I am feeling at this moment. Between hearing that news and the behaviour of this idiot this morning...
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby human909 » Wed May 15, 2013 9:54 pm

JessicaAlba wrote:Sitting at a busy intersection this morning, on my way to work, there is a bike lane that divides the left turning (vehicular) lane and the straight through, in which I was positioned. 20 something lad on a bike, no helmet, no hands, straight through the red light, swerves to avoid a car or two and continues through the intersection. I honestly wanted to get out of my car once I'd caught up to him and punch him square in the face...

In my eyes, this is a complete disrespect to cyclists that abide by the road rules, yet meet the kind of fate that Tanya Roneberg did on Saturday morning. I would not wish death upon anyone, by why is it that she is no longer with us and *********s like this bloke are...? It is wrong. Just wrong.


Cyclists should stop feeling like somebody cycling in a way that you do not is a personal insult or an insult to other cyclists! :idea:

No helmet? No hands? Seriously who cares? It's his own choice and his own risk. Its still a damn sight safer than competitive road cycling or downhill mountain biking!

Red lights? Well if he his getting in the way of other road users then that's an issue, but that isn't something to see as an insult!

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby MREJ » Wed May 15, 2013 10:37 pm

Hi human909

I think the point is that it helps if you consider the implications of your actions for others. Cyclists really need the protection of the law and the respect of motorised road users. Blatant disregard of road rules and riding in a hazardous manner is contrary to our interests on both fronts. I wouldn't personally punch someone out for doing that, but I would definitely feel like they were hindering our common interest in a safer, more respectful environment.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby MREJ » Wed May 15, 2013 10:37 pm

Edited - accidental repeat
Last edited by MREJ on Wed May 15, 2013 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby JessicaAlba » Wed May 15, 2013 10:56 pm

My apologies.

I did not mean to imply that I was insulted by this person riding a bike's actions, nor did I mean to imply his actions were insulting to law abiding cyclists. I guess what I meant was that one would hope that people would at least learn a lesson from what has happened and not be so stupid to behave thus. And in some ways, I guess I also meant what MREJ has said, that deliberate flaunting of the law, and personal safety, does not promote a good look, or garner any sympathy from the public at large.

Eh. I'm tired. A little bit shocked at the discussion I had this evening with my mate about the accident.

I think I'll just go to bed, lol.
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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby human909 » Wed May 15, 2013 11:03 pm

JessicaAlba wrote:My apologies.


No apologies necessary. :D (Though i apologise if i sounded rude, this forum has thickened the skin and roughened the edges :? )

JessicaAlba wrote:I did not mean to imply that I was insulted by this person riding a bike's actions, nor did I mean to imply his actions were insulting to law abiding cyclists. I guess what I meant was that one would hope that people would at least learn a lesson from what has happened and not be so stupid to behave thus. And in some ways, I guess I also meant what MREJ has said, that deliberate flaunting of the law, and personal safety, does not promote a good look, or garner any sympathy from the public at large.

Eh. I'm tired. A little bit shocked at the discussion I had this evening with my mate about the accident.

I think I'll just go to bed, lol.


Understandable. :D

Cyclists are a diverse bunch just like motorists and just like pedestrians. Motorists don't start being perfect citizens when there is a fatal crash on the news. Pedestrians aren't perfect angels either in the CBD. Expecting that cyclists will be is a little idealistic.

MREJ wrote:Hi human909

I think the point is that it helps if you consider the implications of your actions for others. Cyclists really need the protection of the law and the respect of motorised road users. Blatant disregard of road rules and riding in a hazardous manner is contrary to our interests on both fronts. I wouldn't personally punch someone out for doing that, but I would definitely feel like they were hindering our common interest in a safer, more respectful environment.


Hi,

I understand your argument. You are certainly not the first on this forum to express it. Nor am I the first person to dismiss it. :wink: That said....

Maybe we should also ban fit middle aged men in lycra (MAMILs) too? Judging by the comments from the tabloid newspapers they rude, arrogant and should get off the roads. Those drivers out there disrespecting cyclists in a dangerous manner are not doing it because of some guy is without a helmet, or riding without hands or ignoring a red light. Anybody who believes that he protection of the law and the respect of motorised road users depends on all cyclist following all rules is setting themselves up for disappointment.

Oh an is not having a bell fitted also a blatant disregard of road rules? Or does that rule not count? I personally see no problems with riding without a helmet. Riding with no hands? Well there is a time and place.

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 16, 2013 10:20 am

human909 wrote:
JessicaAlba wrote:Sitting at a busy intersection this morning, on my way to work, there is a bike lane that divides the left turning (vehicular) lane and the straight through, in which I was positioned. 20 something lad on a bike, no helmet, no hands, straight through the red light, swerves to avoid a car or two and continues through the intersection. I honestly wanted to get out of my car once I'd caught up to him and punch him square in the face...

In my eyes, this is a complete disrespect to cyclists that abide by the road rules, yet meet the kind of fate that Tanya Roneberg did on Saturday morning. I would not wish death upon anyone, by why is it that she is no longer with us and *********s like this bloke are...? It is wrong. Just wrong.


Cyclists should stop feeling like somebody cycling in a way that you do not is a personal insult or an insult to other cyclists! :idea:

No helmet? No hands? Seriously who cares? It's his own choice and his own risk. Its still a damn sight safer than competitive road cycling or downhill mountain biking!

Red lights? Well if he his getting in the way of other road users then that's an issue, but that isn't something to see as an insult!


Are you a pedestrian sometimes? IE, do you walk along footpaths? Then you must also run red lights, because other pedestrians do so. That's the way I see a lot of discussions go here - and a lot of threads end up derailed away from the original and important issue.

Personally, I don't think it will make any difference to perceptions of cyclists ride single-file, wear helmets, don't run through red-lights and stop wearing lycra. The cyclist who stops at the red light will anger the motorist who wanted to blast through on the orange but was held up by the law-abiding cyclist, etc.

Car driving motorists won't be pleased until they've got all cyclists off the road. And then, flushed with success, they will turn their attention to motorbikes, who can also split lanes and jump the queues.

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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby Mulger bill » Thu May 16, 2013 7:07 pm

g-boaf wrote:Personally, I don't think it will make any difference to perceptions of cyclists ride single-file, wear helmets, don't run through red-lights and stop wearing lycra. The cyclist who stops at the red light will anger the motorist who wanted to blast through on the orange but was held up by the law-abiding cyclist, etc.

Car driving motorists won't be pleased until they've got all cyclists off the road. And then, flushed with success, they will turn their attention to motorbikes, who can also split lanes and jump the queues.


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Re: Another fatality, Cairns today

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri May 17, 2013 12:50 am

this is why the 30m exemption. I want no more excuses from yet another a transport minister! (Penultimate paragraph)

http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/queenslan ... 2jozq.html

Talented violinist Richard Pollett rode his bike for the last time along Moggill Road on September 27, 2011.
On Friday morning, dozens of cyclists will ride the same stretch to demand a change to the road rules they say could have saved Richard's life.
“Motorists can, and do, regularly give cyclists mere inches as they whiz past you,” said Paul French from cycling lobby group CBD BUG.
The group is supporting a petition to require cars to give cyclists a minimum 1.5 metres distance when overtaking.
“We'd be happy with a metre,” Mr French said. “We just need something.”
Mr Pollett, 25, was killed when a cement truck struck his bike while overtaking him.
Truck driver Luke Stevens was found not guilty of dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing death on May 6, after a three day trial.
Director of Safe Cycling Australia David Sharp said he was inspired to create the petition after speaking with Mr Pollett's devastated mother Patricia.
“She was very disheartened and upset as you can imagine, and she just wanted to know what else could be done,” he said.
“She wants her son's life to mean more than what the courts have basically told her it meant.”
Member for Moggill Bruce Flegg has sponsored the petition, which has received more than 3000 signatures since being lodged on May 10.
Dr Flegg, himself a keen cyclist, will join CBD BUG's A Metre Matters Awareness Ride, supported by the Amy Gillett Foundation.
Riders will start the three-kilometre journey at the Kenmore Village Shopping Centre at 7.30am then travel along Moggill Road past a "ghost bike" that marks the spot where Richard Pollett died.
Dr Flegg said the current law that simply requires vehicles to leave a sufficient distance was no longer enough protection.
“There is a need for a specific gap to be left, which gives motorists a clear idea of how much room they need to allow them,” he said.
Mr French said a growing number of jurisdictions in Europe and the United States were bringing in minimum passing distances.
“It's just a best practice approach that we'd like to see adopted in Queensland,” he said.
He said the publicity of introducing a safe passing distance rule would educate motorists, and suggested it could be enforced much like tailgating regulations.
“It typically isn't enforced unless police happen to be on the spot, or in the case of a crash, it becomes clear when a motorist hasn't allowed enough space between vehicles,” he said.
Transport Minister Scott Emerson said the petition would be considered, but there were currently no plans to change rules regarding overtaking cyclists.

“Any petition lodged will be considered, however a fixed distance raises a number of issues such as making it illegal for cyclists to move slowly and closely past queued vehicles,” he said.
“All cyclists and drivers should be considerate of each other and ensure they are travelling safely at all times.”
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