Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby John Lewis » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:42 pm

Aushiker wrote:


Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. You couldn't supply evidence of it when I last asked either. So WA law is a safe pass is one where the cyclist is not hit or obstructed. Personally I would prefer 1.5 metres but each to their own. If you happy with 10 cm I will remember that when passing you :)

Andrew[/quote]

Too true. I was told by a police officer that any pass where I was not hit is considered a safe pass.

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby high_tea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:00 am

John Lewis wrote:
Aushiker wrote:


Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. You couldn't supply evidence of it when I last asked either. So WA law is a safe pass is one where the cyclist is not hit or obstructed. Personally I would prefer 1.5 metres but each to their own. If you happy with 10 cm I will remember that when passing you :)

Andrew


Too true. I was told by a police officer that any pass where I was not hit is considered a safe pass.

John[/quote]
Well, that's a problem all right, but I think the problem is that ridiculous interpretation of "safe". Maybe this particular issue can be fixed with legislation, but the more general problem of these little loopholes that never see the inside of a courtroom remains.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby snortin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:37 am

John Lewis wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. You couldn't supply evidence of it when I last asked either. So WA law is a safe pass is one where the cyclist is not hit or obstructed. Personally I would prefer 1.5 metres but each to their own. If you happy with 10 cm I will remember that when passing you :)

Andrew


Too true. I was told by a police officer that any pass where I was not hit is considered a safe pass.

John


I have been told the same thing - when I came to a police officer who was monitoring a bus lane and booking motorists driving in it. I informed the officer that the gentleman who he was booking had almost hit me. He said that he didn't hit me so he couldn't book him for that.

Other legislation has provision for prosecution for acts that have the potential to cause harm (think OHS and Environmental laws), why can't the road act be amended to read that passing closer than 1.5m to cyclists has the potential to cause harm and drivers will be prosecuted for such an offence?
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Bartek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:17 pm

Aushiker wrote:Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. Andrew


The combination of regulations 124, 126 and 130 mean that a vehicle other than a a bicycle or motorcycle cannot be in the same lane as another vehicle when overtaking. A motorcycle is only classed as a motorcycle when it has two wheels and no side car.

Incidentally if that interpretation is incorrect then that means in my car I can overtake between two cars (or trucks!) as long as there is a "safe distance"
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby VRE » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:55 pm

What we need is for more police officers to ride bicycles*. I wonder how quickly some more reasonable close-passing laws would be passed if this was the case :roll: . Nothing explains it better than seeing it first-hand.

* and I'm not referring to the cycling squad, or whatever it's termed in each State, but just police officers cycling in their spare/commuting time.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:13 pm

I regularly cycled with 2 police officers in a local CC. The odd richard head was observed, I didn't hear of them booking anyone after the event though.
I think they are probably well over dealing with dead beats during their work hours to go looking for them in their time off. That and the current legislation probably doesn't give them much to work with.
Love him or loathe him our next PM is a fairly high profile bike rider, that can't be a bad thing.
Not trying to start a political debate by the way, but more politicians cycling and having family members that cycle should help. Gives us someone to lobby directly.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby high_tea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:28 pm

Bartek wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. Andrew


The combination of regulations 124, 126 and 130 mean that a vehicle other than a a bicycle or motorcycle cannot be in the same lane as another vehicle when overtaking. A motorcycle is only classed as a motorcycle when it has two wheels and no side car.

Incidentally if that interpretation is incorrect then that means in my car I can overtake between two cars (or trucks!) as long as there is a "safe distance"

Your interpretation is indeed incorrect. You can do exactly what you describe subject to, among other things, r122. And the safe distance requirement, as you point out. Which means it would be pretty unusual, but not impossible, for this to be lawful.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby snortin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:29 pm

Bartek wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. Andrew


The combination of regulations 124, 126 and 130 mean that a vehicle other than a a bicycle or motorcycle cannot be in the same lane as another vehicle when overtaking. A motorcycle is only classed as a motorcycle when it has two wheels and no side car.

Incidentally if that interpretation is incorrect then that means in my car I can overtake between two cars (or trucks!) as long as there is a "safe distance"


I assume you are talking about WA? Reading those regulations there is no such requirement. Here are the regulations:

124 . Keeping a safe distance when overtaking

A driver overtaking a vehicle —

(a) shall pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle; and

(b) shall not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past that vehicle to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle.

126 . Driving in single lane on carriageway

(1) A driver shall drive the vehicle as nearly as practicable entirely within a single marked lane or in a single line of traffic and shall not move laterally from any such lane or line of traffic until he or she can do so with safety.

(2) A driver who is moving laterally from any single marked lane or line of traffic shall give way to any vehicle travelling in the same direction as the driver in the marked lane or line of traffic into which the driver is moving.

130 . Riding 2‑wheeled vehicle alongside more than one other rider

(1) The rider of a motor cycle, moped, power‑assisted pedal cycle or bicycle shall not ride on a carriageway that is not a multi‑laned carriageway alongside more than one other rider, unless the rider is overtaking the other riders.

(2) The rider of a motor cycle, moped, power‑assisted pedal cycle or bicycle shall not ride in a marked lane on a carriageway alongside more than one other rider, unless the rider is overtaking the other riders.

(3) The rider of a power‑assisted pedal cycle or bicycle shall not ride on a path alongside another rider, unless the rider is overtaking the other rider.

(4) If the rider of a motor cycle, moped, power‑assisted pedal cycle or bicycle is riding on a carriageway that is not a multi‑lane carriageway alongside another rider, or in a marked lane alongside another rider in the marked lane, the rider shall ride not over 1.5 m from the other rider.

(5) In this regulation —

moped means a motor cycle that has a propelling engine having a piston displacement not exceeding 50 mL and that is designed so as not to be capable of a speed exceeding 50 km/h, whether or not it is also capable of being propelled as a pedal cycle, but does not include a power assisted pedal cycle;

motor cycle does not include —

(a) a 2‑wheeled motor vehicle with a sidecar attached to it that is supported by a third wheel; or

(b) a motor vehicle with 3 wheels that is ridden in the same way as a motor vehicle with 2 wheels.


Nowhere above is there a requirement to move wholly out of a lane to overtake a bicycle rider (or any other vehicle). The closest you have is the overtaking requirement (124). As long as the overtake is done at a sufficient distance to avoid causing a collision or obstructing the vehicle being overtaking it is acceptable. If it is not required to change lanes to achieve part a) then the requirement to not change back into the marked lane in b) is not applicable. Even if it did apply as long as you don't cause a collision or obstruct the vehicle you are overtaking then there is no offence committed. Read also the overtaking regulation below:

122 . Overtaking

(1) When overtaking a moving vehicle, a driver of a vehicle (other than a bicycle) shall, except as provided in subregulations (2) and (3), pass to the right of that vehicle, at a safe distance.

(2) Where a carriageway is a one‑way carriageway, or has 2 or more marked lanes for vehicles travelling in the same direction, a driver may overtake and pass in another marked lane to the left of a vehicle, if conditions permit him or her to do so with safety.

(3) A driver overtaking a vehicle making, or apparently about to make, a right turn or U turn from the middle of the carriageway and giving a right change of direction signal, shall pass to the left of it and of any vehicle that may be stationary behind it, but only if it is safe to do so.

(4) The rider of a bicycle shall not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is making, or apparently about to make, a left turn, or is signalling a left turn.

So in summary to answer your last question
Bartek wrote:Incidentally if that interpretation is incorrect then that means in my car I can overtake between two cars (or trucks!) as long as there is a "safe distance"
YES!
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby snortin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:30 pm

high_tea wrote:
Bartek wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. Andrew


The combination of regulations 124, 126 and 130 mean that a vehicle other than a a bicycle or motorcycle cannot be in the same lane as another vehicle when overtaking. A motorcycle is only classed as a motorcycle when it has two wheels and no side car.

Incidentally if that interpretation is incorrect then that means in my car I can overtake between two cars (or trucks!) as long as there is a "safe distance"

Your interpretation is indeed incorrect. You can do exactly what you describe subject to, among other things, r122. And the safe distance requirement, as you point out. Which means it would be pretty unusual, but not impossible, for this to be lawful.


Ooops, HT got in before me and answered the same question - without the addition of the regulations (which makes for a much shorter post!!)
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Bartek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:37 pm

warthog1 wrote:Love him or loathe him our next PM is a fairly high profile bike rider, that can't be a bad thing..


I didn't know that Kevin Rudd rode a bicycle, but that should help! :D
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Bartek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:08 pm

snortin wrote:Nowhere above is there a requirement to move wholly out of a lane to overtake a bicycle rider (or any other vehicle). The closest you have is the overtaking requirement (124). As long as the overtake is done at a sufficient distance to avoid causing a collision or obstructing the vehicle being overtaking it is acceptable. If it is not required to change lanes to achieve part a) then the requirement to not change back into the marked lane in b) is not applicable. Even if it did apply as long as you don't cause a collision or obstruct the vehicle you are overtaking then there is no offence committed.


122. refers to compulsory overtaking on the right (bicycles excepted) except on one way carriageways and multi lanes allowing overtaking on the left

124. (b) states "shall not' not to be confused with 'may not'. which means they shouldn't be in that lane, otherwise that regulation would have a provision for when it is not applicable. If this was not the case then this part of the regulation would be unnecessary as moving between lanes/lines of traffic is covered by 126.2.

126. means the only vehicles allowed to ride alongside each other within a carriageway or marked lane is bicycles or two wheeled motorcycles.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Bartek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:10 pm

high_tea wrote:Your interpretation is indeed incorrect. You can do exactly what you describe subject to, among other things, r122. And the safe distance requirement, as you point out. Which means it would be pretty unusual, but not impossible, for this to be lawful.


try it and see what happens :twisted:
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby exadios » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:20 pm

snortin wrote:
John Lewis wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
Well for starters WA does not have a "move into another lane" law (that is Victoria and possibly other states, not WA from what I can find. You couldn't supply evidence of it when I last asked either. So WA law is a safe pass is one where the cyclist is not hit or obstructed. Personally I would prefer 1.5 metres but each to their own. If you happy with 10 cm I will remember that when passing you :)

Andrew


Too true. I was told by a police officer that any pass where I was not hit is considered a safe pass.

John


I have been told the same thing - when I came to a police officer who was monitoring a bus lane and booking motorists driving in it. I informed the officer that the gentleman who he was booking had almost hit me. He said that he didn't hit me so he couldn't book him for that.

Other legislation has provision for prosecution for acts that have the potential to cause harm (think OHS and Environmental laws), why can't the road act be amended to read that passing closer than 1.5m to cyclists has the potential to cause harm and drivers will be prosecuted for such an offence?


What do you think would have happened if there was a 1.5m law and you told the policeman that the driver had passed you at less than that clearance. I think you will find that the driver will say that he passed you at 1.5m and your hudgement is faulty.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby high_tea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:31 pm

Bartek wrote:
high_tea wrote:Your interpretation is indeed incorrect. You can do exactly what you describe subject to, among other things, r122. And the safe distance requirement, as you point out. Which means it would be pretty unusual, but not impossible, for this to be lawful.


try it and see what happens :twisted:


In the unlikely event that this arises, and in the doubly unlikely event that the police decide to make an issue of it, I'll make the exact argument that I made above. More to the point, your interpretation no more fits the WA act read as a whole any more than it does the Queensland act or any other set of Road Rules. I don't intend to argue the toss any more. I have no confidence in changing your mind on the point, nor do I intend to try. I just want to make the point that there are serious problems - I'd say overwhelming - with this argument.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby jules21 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:33 pm

overtaking requires a vehicle to change lanes. this doesn't mean you must change lanes when moving past another vehicle, just that it's not categorised as overtaking if you don't. it's not hard to see why this is a problem for cyclists - drivers can gain protection from the overtaking rule by staying within the same lane as the cyclist.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby human909 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:33 pm

jules21 wrote:overtaking requires a vehicle to change lanes. this doesn't mean you must change lanes when moving past another vehicle, just that it's not categorised as overtaking if you don't.


That is incorrect. Overtaking another vehicle can occur regardless of the presences of lanes.


overtake , for a driver, means the action of—
(a) approaching from behind another driver travelling in
the same marked lane or line of traffic; and
(b) moving into an adjacent marked lane or part of the
road on which there is room for a line of traffic
(whether or not the lane or part of the road is for
drivers travelling in the same direction); and
(c) passing the other driver while travelling in the
adjacent marked lane or line of traffic;
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby jules21 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:26 pm

it clearly says the driver needs to move into an "adjacent marked lane". no marked lane... no overtaking.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby queequeg » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:21 pm

jules21 wrote:it clearly says the driver needs to move into an "adjacent marked lane". no marked lane... no overtaking.


no...it says "a marked lane OR line of traffic"
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby jules21 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:01 pm

queequeg wrote:
jules21 wrote:it clearly says the driver needs to move into an "adjacent marked lane". no marked lane... no overtaking.


no...it says "a marked lane OR line of traffic"

ok, but that doesn't describe overtaking a cyclist within a single lane either. if it were to be argued that the driver was in an adjacent line of traffic (within the one, marked lane), then it's still not overtaking as the driver has to move from one (in which the cyclist is occupying) and into the other. this is not impossible, but would be highly unusual.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:24 am

Multilane, they can't occupy the lane at the same time as you for overtakes. Single lane, they have to (by definition).

Practically, you get issues with both of these, because safe distances are not the priority for some drivers. Some will avoid the double line cross and shave the cyclist (dumbest idea ever, obey an irrelevant law and risk a life instead!) and some will not bother to change lanes fully. Some will refuse to wait and shave you trying to avoid being on the wrong side of the road (second dumbest idea, risk your life and the cyclist for 5 seconds of the trip).

The Parliamentary questions are telling. There is an acknowledgement that the current laws are simply not policed in a manner that is meaningful for cyclists.

exadios, you are right - he said, she said gets you nowhere with police, HOWEVER that is where your video footage becomes useful. It is quite easy to see where a dangerous pass has been made; you don't need to calibrate because your brain does it for you. You can tell if someone is 1.5 or 2m away, and when they are only a foot. Reference points in the video allow for this. Have a look at Aushiker's videos, and have a guess at how far away objects are from the side of the road. You will have a great idea of how far it is once the law changes, because most cars are going to provide that gap.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:45 am

Melbourne and other parts of Victoria that I know of have roads with multi-lanes that are wide enough for a car and a bike to share the lane legitimately and safely, as long a the overtaking driver is reasonable about it. I commute along a section of one such road.

These roads have a special bike symbol painted on them, not a bike lane, but indicating a wider kerbside lane - wide enough for sharing. Like this one on Rosanna Rd.

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:50 am

Xplora wrote:exadios, you are right - he said, she said gets you nowhere with police, HOWEVER that is where your video footage becomes useful. It is quite easy to see where a dangerous pass has been made; you don't need to calibrate because your brain does it for you. You can tell if someone is 1.5 or 2m away, and when they are only a foot. Reference points in the video allow for this. Have a look at Aushiker's videos, and have a guess at how far away objects are from the side of the road. You will have a great idea of how far it is once the law changes, because most cars are going to provide that gap.


So are you saying that enforcement of this rule is going to require all cyclists who care about it to ride with video cameras ???

I for one have no desire to do such a thing.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Summernight » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:40 am

il padrone wrote:Melbourne and other parts of Victoria that I know of have roads with multi-lanes that are wide enough for a car and a bike to share the lane legitimately and safely, as long a the overtaking driver is reasonable about it. I commute along a section of one such road.

These roads have a special bike symbol painted on them, not a bike lane, but indicating a wider kerbside lane - wide enough for sharing. Like this one on Rosanna Rd.

Image


The only problem with those roads is that the bike symbol and painted section are very intermittent. Yes, a car can possibly safely pass in the same lane, but the same issue about the driver making sure they are a safe distance away still applies. And what usually happens is that where there isn't the painted line or sign the car will drift back over left.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:51 am

il padrone wrote:
Xplora wrote:exadios, you are right - he said, she said gets you nowhere with police, HOWEVER that is where your video footage becomes useful. It is quite easy to see where a dangerous pass has been made; you don't need to calibrate because your brain does it for you. You can tell if someone is 1.5 or 2m away, and when they are only a foot. Reference points in the video allow for this. Have a look at Aushiker's videos, and have a guess at how far away objects are from the side of the road. You will have a great idea of how far it is once the law changes, because most cars are going to provide that gap.


So are you saying that enforcement of this rule is going to require all cyclists who care about it to ride with video cameras ???

I for one have no desire to do such a thing.

I'm saying that the enforcement of ANY rule is going to require a camera if it doesn't have willing witnesses. Unfortunately, all but deliberate acts of aggression tend to be ignored as the witnesses often just drive away! But at least a 1.5m offence is easier to show, rather than just relying on contact.

Somewhat amusing that I got pinged for stopping in a No Stopping zone apparently, yet we don't have the manpower as a community to better enforce our Road Rules for moving vehicles which are a much more serious risk to the community. (I'll cop that one on the chin and be more careful, but it does seem odd, doesn't it?)

The pic above is the best way to sort this stuff out if you want dedicated car space. An actual lane, that is not impeded by parking. Summernight, I'm not sure what kind of situation you are thinking of as ideal? The only resolution I can see is claim the lane if there is no special bike lane, and education and enforcement to defend the cyclist's rights (as claiming the lane can be frustrating for cars).
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Summernight » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:05 pm

Dedicated bike lane (wide enough), and no street car-parking would be ideal. Or yes, no street car-parking and claiming the lane.

I'm not sure about Rosanna Road in particular but where I've seen these things they usually allow cars to park in the left lane at non-peak hour times.
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