Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby citywomble » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:15 am

Il Pad,

You're not thick but its not correct to say there are no surprises (problems) when it comes to the road rules.

First there is a common understanding that passing (in the same lane particularly where there are medians) is the same as overtaking which is defined as such.

In discussing overtaking there seems to be too much emphasis on marked lanes and very little on 'line of traffic' which are very different.
(c) passing the other driver while travelling in the adjacent marked lane or line of traffic


When a car or truck passes a cyclist it does not necessarily have to change lanes because of the line of traffic requirement. Wide kerbside lanes are specifically provided to be wide enough for cyclists to be overtaken within the same lane. In this case the line of traffic refers to the cyclists line which is very narrow - having a distance between the two lines of traffic, such as 1.5m is a massive improvement.

Think of a cyclist as defining his line of traffic, effectively this is a space just 1.0m wide. These are easy to see as they exist as a 'marked lane' and are called Bike Lanes. Probably their main benefit (apart from conning inexperienced cyclists that they are safer) is for the motorist as they remove cyclists from the main traffic lane and keep them away from the cleaner safer part of the road.

I see many horrendous videos of cyclists being passed which are clearly less than half a metre clear so, with a 1.5m rule evidence of a breach would be easy to show. Ask Aushiker what the WA police say when he shows them a near pass "no offence observed" and think whether that casual rejection would still be appropriate where the test would be 1.5m.

Rules are there to educate, modify behaviour and only as a last resort enforce. Why would anyone not support such a sensible rule that provides as much room to a smaller cyclist as a motor vehicle always provides to another bigger vehicle.

Put simply fear of being hit when passing too close makes motorists take greater care - with big vehicles. When the fear of passing too close is only felt by the cyclist being passed there needs to be a law that provides an additional fear for the motorist to keep clear.
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by BNA » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:30 am

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby zero » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:30 am

You don't get a "line of traffic" when moving around another moving vehicle by straddling a lane line. The concept covers a road space where the two vehicle streams are able to travel on alternate lines.

Note that the vast majority of roads would in fact support that just fine with 2 car width vehicles, if only motorists weren't in the practice of abandoning their 10sqm assets at the kerb in public thoroughfares all the time. I always find it amusing that one particular street that has a significant grade on the driveways, which causes motorists to drive up their driveways to avoid walking up them, and incidentally leaves me with 2m of space to be completely out of the motorist traffic flow for a whole length of that road. A rarity in suburbs.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:48 am

zero wrote:You don't get a "line of traffic" when moving around another moving vehicle by straddling a lane line. The concept covers a road space where the two vehicle streams are able to travel on alternate lines.


Let me help with you that :) From the qld road rules:

line of traffic means—
(a) 2 or more vehicles, other than vehicles in a marked lane,
travelling in line on a road, whether or not the vehicles
are moving; or
(b) a single vehicle, other than a vehicle in a marked lane or
a vehicle that is part of a line of traffic under paragraph
(a), that is travelling along a road, whether or not the
vehicle is moving.
Examples—
1 A vehicle travelling on a road, other than in a marked lane, in line
behind another vehicle forms part of a line of traffic with the other
vehicle.
2 A vehicle travelling on a road, other than in a marked lane, with no
other vehicles near it forms a line of traffic by itself.
3 Two vehicles travelling in the same direction on a road, other than
in a marked lane, but not in line, form 2 lines of traffic.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:59 am

Yep, the Victorian rule definition is almost identical:

line of traffic means—
(a) 2 or more vehicles travelling in line along a road (whether or not the vehicles are actually moving, but not including vehicles in a marked lane); or
(b) a single vehicle, other than a vehicle that is part of a line of traffic under paragraph (a), that is travelling along a road (whether or not the vehicle is actually moving, but not including a vehicle in a marked lane);
Examples
1 A vehicle travelling along a road (except in a marked lane) in line behind another vehicle (the leading vehicle) forms part of a line of traffic with the leading vehicle.
2 A vehicle travelling along a road (except in a marked lane) with no other vehicles in the vicinity constitutes a line of traffic by itself.
3 Two vehicles travelling in the same direction on a road (except in a marked lane), but not in line, are 2 lines of traffic.



Note that in all of this vehicles in marked lanes are excluded. A 'line of traffic' is something that happens on unmarked roads, so as a general principle overtaking traffic does not form a new line of traffic within a lane when overtaking - they should change to the next lane, even if it is the oncoming lane (when clear of course).
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby zero » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:05 am

InTheWoods wrote:
zero wrote:You don't get a "line of traffic" when moving around another moving vehicle by straddling a lane line. The concept covers a road space where the two vehicle streams are able to travel on alternate lines.


Let me help with you that :) From the qld road rules:

line of traffic means—
(a) 2 or more vehicles, other than vehicles in a marked lane,
travelling in line on a road, whether or not the vehicles
are moving; or
(b) a single vehicle, other than a vehicle in a marked lane or
a vehicle that is part of a line of traffic under paragraph
(a), that is travelling along a road, whether or not the
vehicle is moving.
Examples—
1 A vehicle travelling on a road, other than in a marked lane, in line
behind another vehicle forms part of a line of traffic with the other
vehicle.
2 A vehicle travelling on a road, other than in a marked lane, with no
other vehicles near it forms a line of traffic by itself.
3 Two vehicles travelling in the same direction on a road, other than
in a marked lane, but not in line, form 2 lines of traffic.


The *travelling* word is not trivially meaningless you'll find, and there is also the difficulty interpreting the fact that the car is alongside me, but still overlapping the lines of the vehicles that are behind and ahead of us for which legally we both form the same line of traffic, and yes this is the kind of thing that will get hairsplit if necessary in a court decision.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:08 pm

I think all of this strongly validates the legal standing of the 'claim the lane' strategy. I've been doing it routinely in Italian cities and it works well.

I was doing it a bit more before we left, after comments from a colleague who rides bicycles as well as motorcycles - she "owns the lane, all the time". I'll be utilising it a bit more aggressively now back in Australia. Maybe not on the higher speed highways, but on urban, congested 80kmh and less roads it simply works to make drivers do a correct lane-change.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Xplora » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:26 pm

City womble is the money. There are interpretive issues with some rules. One I like is the rear car in a nose to tail crash is at fault by assumption. Powerful interpretation of "must not travel too close" because our common experience in bunches or just driving is that too close is only a problem for prangs. 99% of the time it means nothing. And yet liability is automatically put on that rear driver. :idea:

My issue remains that the practical interpretation of the "no collision" rule is the utterly unacceptable results arising from it. Pad is totally right about what "should" be done but Aushiker has shown that this means nothing because the law does not require a sensible approach to cyclists. This is killing people and destroying families and communities. Education means nothing unless your rules require change. A sense of decency and intelligence is not enough in moduhn sosytee (sic).
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:59 pm

Claiming the lane Italian-style (my wife cycling through Castellammare). We felt much safer than any Melbourne street :)

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Last edited by il padrone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Xplora » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:09 pm

That's the thing though; claiming the lane is a great way to make yourself safe, but only if drivers allow you to do it. Unfortunately, mass dictates that you don't decide what is happening. Oxford found out the hard way what happens if the car driver changes their mind.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:29 pm

il padrone wrote:Claiming the lane Italian-style (my wife cycling through Castellammare). We felt much safer than any Melbourne street :)

Image


Cool photo. But also that looks *really* slow. I never get any grief claiming a lane in slow traffic.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:42 pm

Yes, it was slow. We were passing the cars a lot but complicated by the pedestrians crossing the street, scooters riding both ways down the middle of the street where we were passing cars, and people doing three-point turns and double-parking in the middle of it all. Italian traffic is such FUN !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Even in faster traffic, we could happily claim lane space and drivers just slowed down and passed in the next lane when it was clear. No aggro, very little close passing, the only horn use was a short toot of warnng "I am about to pass".
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Tim » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:23 pm

Just a casual observation, most of the cars in the photo are small sedans.
Are there many four wheel drives on Italian roads?
A close shave from a monster 4WD is far more frightening than a small car.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:31 pm

Small sedans a la Fiat Punto are the standard style of car in Italy. A car the size of a Ford Mondeo is a big car. There are quite a few 4WD/SUVs about. Most are soft-roaders. I recall seeing a Hummer driving about Lipari and later parked up in the narrow street - looked like a fish out of water :P

Image



The worst for close shaves were 1. some German car makes, and 2. twenty-something girls on motor scooters.

The scooters are the worst, and size does not matter in this situation. Vespa means wasp.... that's just what they sound like, at high speed a sudden high-pitched buzz right by your shoulder.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Tim » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:45 pm

Vehicle of choice for local mafioso?
Is that the owner in the background?
Is his left hand cradling the butt of a gun?
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:59 pm

:P :P

Nup, the Hummer would have to be a tourist or someone from off the island. No-one in their right mind would drive about in this, it's like a rock around your neck in the narrow streets and lanes. Any real mafioso would be riding in a Piaggio Ape, or on a 400cc scooter.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Tim » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:10 pm

il padrone wrote: Any real mafioso would be riding in a Piaggio Ape, or on a 400cc scooter.


Or a wooden box. :lol:
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby il padrone » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:28 am

Some more lane-claiming in Italy. Dodgy road surface and the cars were not going so slow, but they just had to sit behind us. In Siracusa.

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby VRE » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:31 pm

Very nice :D . That would have had the typical Melbourne motorist frothing at the mouth and about to commit vehicular homicide :lol: .
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby human909 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:25 pm

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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby sumgy » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:30 pm

Hahahaha, the comments are still the same as here though. :D
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:12 am

A joint submission from Maurice Blackburn and Safe Cycling Australia was sent late yesterday afternoon to the Qld Parliamentary Cycling Issues Inquiry. We're expecting that it will be made available at some point today or on Monday.
I'm almost cringing at the potential for mahem that will result from the feedback we receive, but to let you all know, we both felt that any attempt to "engineer" a solution to the current situation we all find ourselves in was deemed unecessary and would most likely be dismissed out of hand by the committee.
Neither Naurice Blackburn or SCA are traffic engineers or road safety professionals with access to our own quantifiable research, so we have put forward what we believe is a simple yet compelling case for 1.5 in Queensland.
National PR will highlight this submission, and Maurice Blackburn, with their successful long term involvement in improving the lot of Australian motorcyclists in Australia, is committing to helping to ensure similar success for cyclists on the roads we all pay for. I'm led to believe details of this involvement will be made known in the near future.
When the submission becomes available on the Qld Parliamentary website I would appreciate your thoughts. In the meantime there is some "interesting" reading to be had from some of the submissions accepted so far.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-o ... es/INQ-CYC
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby Xplora » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:38 am

Any particular ones? I don't know who are the usual suspects... But as they say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist...
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:46 am

Ill see if I can quickly find some of the chaff.
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:59 am

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/docume ... terson.pdf

This one from Skippy McCarthy who unfortunately found the SCA FB page. We really did try incredibly to hide from him for three years but he found us. He's a bit strange to say the least. I think he still has crumbs under the caps LOCK AFTER all these YEARS.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/docume ... Carthy.pdf

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/docume ... C_Burg.pdf

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/docume ... ickham.pdf

This one's a ripper:
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/docume ... eering.pdf
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Re: Where will the 1.5m passing distance be used?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:36 am

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