Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby find_bruce » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:22 pm

Someone asked if anyone had been fined for riding on the footpath. In looking at the answer, I noticed that in NSW over 6 years the number of fines issued has been reasonably consistent of just over 10,000 per year. What did surprise me was the proportions, which are in stark contrast to the impression one might get from a certain cycling "safety" organisation.

  • 74.5% - Rider or passenger not wearing helmet (if you want to discuss whether this is a good law, the place to do so is here)
  • 9.9% - No front light, rear light or reflector
  • 7.8% - Ride on footpath / pedestrian part of separated path / pedestrian area
  • 2.9% - No bell
  • 1.3% - No brake
  • 1.1% - Ride bicycle negligently, recklessly or furiously
  • 0.7% - Run red light
  • 1.7% - Other
Sources NSW Office of State Revenue 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 and 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11.

Of course there are a number of different factors that can contribute to this:
  • ease of detection
  • frequency of offences
  • timing of offences
  • Police priorities
  • whether you had been pulled up for some other offence
While ease of detection is probably a significant factor in the number of helmet fines , no lights & riding on the footpath, the fact that no bell & negligent etc riding are both more common than red light running seems to run against the stereotype so favoured by motorists & the aforementioned advocacy group.
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

by BNA » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:11 pm

BNA
 

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby g-boaf » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:11 pm

The bell is one thing that is now just about pointless.

It has been made irrelevant by the iPod. Ban cyclists and pedestrians from using portable music players while they are moving as an extension of the bell laws. Then the bell becomes useful again.

As for riding a bicycle furiously, I guess I broke that law yesterday and today as well. You could probably make a killing by going through the Strava leader boards of the wide M7 cycle way segments. Perhaps I shouldn't sweat, nor grimace when I'm riding up a hill. ;)

Furiously... What the heck is that?? :lol:
User avatar
g-boaf
 
Posts: 4048
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:36 am

find_bruce wrote:.....the fact that no bell & negligent etc riding are both more common than red light running seems to run against the stereotype so favoured by motorists & the aforementioned advocacy group.

Ignoring any advocacy group views, I'd reckon that riding without a bell is far, far more common than red-light running. I'd reckon 90% + of cyclists ditch their bell soon after purchase of the bike.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18419
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby high_tea » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:15 am

g-boaf wrote:The bell is one thing that is now just about pointless.

It has been made irrelevant by the iPod. Ban cyclists and pedestrians from using portable music players while they are moving as an extension of the bell laws. Then the bell becomes useful again.

Mmm. I druther just ditch the bell law. It's silly. If it needs pedestrian regulation to make it work it's double silly.

Bit of trivia: there is no offence for failing to ring a bell. There is an offence for ringing one unnecessarily.
high_tea
 
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby find_bruce » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:09 pm

You will get no argument from me about the commonality of bikes without bells nor the stupidity of mandatory bell laws, my point being that no bell is not something that would spring out at you.

My theory is that almost all of the no bell & most of the no brake fines will be for cyclists who had already been pulled up for another matter.

high_tea, while there is an offence for failing to have a brake, I am not aware of any offence for failing to use it :D
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby skull » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:22 pm

I have recently put a bell on my bike.

It is great, I was over yelling passing when getting around on sharepaths. All it would do was create confusion and some peds would get uppity. Now I just ding as I approach.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2
User avatar
skull
 
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby high_tea » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:30 pm

find_bruce wrote:You will get no argument from me about the commonality of bikes without bells nor the stupidity of mandatory bell laws, my point being that no bell is not something that would spring out at you.

My theory is that almost all of the no bell & most of the no brake fines will be for cyclists who had already been pulled up for another matter.

high_tea, while there is an offence for failing to have a brake, I am not aware of any offence for failing to use it :D


True, but there's no lack of failing-to-stop offences. You don't absolutely need a brake to stop, but it sure helps :D
high_tea
 
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby lobstermash » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:27 pm

skull wrote:I have recently put a bell on my bike.

It is great, I was over yelling passing when getting around on sharepaths. All it would do was create confusion and some peds would get uppity. Now I just ding as I approach.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2


I took the bell off my bike after a number of incidents of peds panicking when woken up from their stupor and couldn't figure out which side of the line (they were walking on) to go to and I had to all but stop anyway. As noted above, you don't have to ring a bell if you have one, but I've found most people are happy with a polite 'excuse me' and return 'no worries' to my 'thanks' as I go past. I now only got the idiot peds asking 'where's your bell?' when I tell them they're hard to see when walking in unlit areas kitted out in black from head to toe at night...
Passing on your right - me, said just about never...
lobstermash
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:51 pm
Location: Canberra

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:27 pm

skull wrote:I have recently put a bell on my bike.

It is great, I was over yelling passing when getting around on sharepaths. All it would do was create confusion and some peds would get uppity. Now I just ding as I approach.


+1

I discovered the real merits of a bell (for shared path use) about 10 years ago. Pretty much useless on the road for car drivers of course, but even there on busy pedestrian streets it is very worthwhile as a simple warning.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18419
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby Tornado » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:53 pm

il padrone wrote:
find_bruce wrote:I'd reckon 90% + of cyclists ditch their bell soon after purchase of the bike.

Neither of my bikes came with one.
Image

2012 Avanti Giro 3
2003 GT Palomar
User avatar
Tornado
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:25 am
Location: Mandurah WA

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby traveldreamer » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:31 am

g-boaf wrote:The bell is one thing that is now just about pointless.

It has been made irrelevant by the iPod. Ban cyclists and pedestrians from using portable music players while they are moving as an extension of the bell laws. Then the bell becomes usefu:


No.

Only if you ban any form of music systems in cars And while we are at it remove all soundproof ing from cars as well.

Pedestrians and bikes are the solution do not do anything to discourage them. All you will do is make them motorists.


Cars are THE problem
traveldreamer
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 12:10 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby queequeg » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:31 am

traveldreamer wrote:
g-boaf wrote:The bell is one thing that is now just about pointless.

It has been made irrelevant by the iPod. Ban cyclists and pedestrians from using portable music players while they are moving as an extension of the bell laws. Then the bell becomes usefu:


No.

Only if you ban any form of music systems in cars And while we are at it remove all soundproof ing from cars as well.

Pedestrians and bikes are the solution do not do anything to discourage them. All you will do is make them motorists.


Cars are THE problem


A bell on a bike that is ridden on the road is about as effective for warning motorists as a cat flap in an elephant house.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '09 Electra Townie Original 21D
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2858
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby il padrone » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:42 am

queequeg wrote:A bell on a bike that is ridden on the road is about as effective for warning motorists as a cat flap in an elephant house.

The bell requirement is there so that cyclists have a device to warn pedestrians of their approach. Pretty much the same reason that cars must be equipped with a horn, except motorists also warn other motorists (well, maybe not in Australia - here they just seem to use the horn as a form of abuse).

Cyclists should never need to warn motorists. All motorists come equipped with two effective eyes and it is their obligation to look out for cyclists first before passing.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18419
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby queequeg » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:50 am

il padrone wrote:
queequeg wrote:A bell on a bike that is ridden on the road is about as effective for warning motorists as a cat flap in an elephant house.

The bell requirement is there so that cyclists have a device to warn pedestrians of their approach. Pretty much the same reason that cars must be equipped with a horn, except motorists also warn other motorists (well, maybe not in Australia - here they just seem to use the horn as a form of abuse).


The law doesn't make that distinction. A bell works fine on quiet streets and shared paths, but in a noisy environment it is useless. I have been
coasting behind pedestrians and ring my bell about 40 times, but due to background noise from passing cars they just can't hear it. Not surprising given that I can barely hear it over the noise.
So, my bell is mostly there for legal compliance, but my voice is far more effective (as is yelling out "No brakes!" in an urgent sounding voice). Is my voice box not a device?
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '09 Electra Townie Original 21D
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2858
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby il padrone » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:57 am

queequeg wrote:The law doesn't make that distinction. A bell works fine on quiet streets and shared paths, but in a noisy environment it is useless. I have been
coasting behind pedestrians and ring my bell about 40 times, but due to background noise from passing cars they just can't hear it. Not surprising given that I can barely hear it over the noise.


If the roads are that busy and noisy it is highly unlikely that a pedestrian will be stepping out into the road without looking I'd think. Regardless the law does not specify the environment of use. It would be equally pretty useless honking a horn in a road tunnel. It is often pretty useless honking a horn in city streets with building echo and such. Should this be grounds for removing the legal requirement for motor vehicle horns ??


queequeg wrote:So, my bell is mostly there for legal compliance, but my voice is far more effective (as is yelling out "No brakes!" in an urgent sounding voice). Is my voice box not a device?


Legal requirement for a bell does not prevent you using your voice for warning as well. By any legal definition though, no, a part of your personal anatomy is not a 'device'.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18419
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby queequeg » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:04 am

il padrone wrote:If the roads are that busy and noisy it is highly unlikely that a pedestrian will be stepping out into the road without looking I'd think. Regardless the law does not specify the environment of use. It would be equally pretty useless honking a horn in a road tunnel. It is often pretty useless honking a horn in city streets with building echo and such. Should this be grounds for removing the legal requirement for motor vehicle horns ??


Legal requirement for a bell does not prevent you using your voice for warning as well. By any legal definition though, no, a part of your personal anatomy is not a 'device'.


I am not talking about using my bell when riding on a road like that, but many of the shared paths I use are alongside busy arterial roads (and freeways). Basically, coming up behind a pedestrian on a shared path, but due to noise from the adjacent road, they can't hear the bell.
It has nothing to do with horns in cars, but a horn in a car produces a vastly louder warning than any feeble "ting ting" from a bell. Also, I ride all weather and in the rain my bell makes more of a soft "thunk" noise rather than a "ping". Car horns are not affected by weather.
I don't know what the ADRs are for car horns, but there is no standard for bells. My understanding is that as long as you have one and it "works", it is fine. Whether it makes it an effective warning device is open for debate. My experience is that it is fine for a friendly warning in a quiet environment, but is pretty much useless the rest of the time. Cyclists are not wrapped up in sealed soundproof boxes and can use their voice as an audible warning device. The volume is easily adjusted to circumstances. Motorists have horns because they can shout at the top of their lungs inside their vehicle and nobody will hear them.
So yes, the law says I need a bell, but does not mandate that I use it (or dictate where on my bike it must be located, just that it be attached)
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '09 Electra Townie Original 21D
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2858
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:29 pm

On another forum, there is discussion about Police stings that are set up deliberately in areas where the cycling infrastructure doesn't exist, or an intersection is dangerous enough that people prefer to use a pedestrian crossing for some degree of safety.
User avatar
g-boaf
 
Posts: 4048
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby Undertow » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:51 am

find_bruce wrote:[*]1.1% - Ride bicycle negligently, recklessly or furiously


I guess it's illegal to have sprints on your group ride then.
Image
Undertow
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 12:25 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby find_bruce » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:47 am

Undertow wrote:
find_bruce wrote:[*]1.1% - Ride bicycle negligently, recklessly or furiously


I guess it's illegal to have sprints on your group ride then.

Yes & not just for that reason. Every state and territory ban races being conducted without approval. In NSW it is section 115 of the Road Transport Act

I have never heard of anyone being booked for racing on a bike though.
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby citywomble » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:39 pm

I guess it's illegal to have sprints on your group ride then.


Yes.

By way of confirmation that this was actually the intent when the law was drafted, Section 115 applies to any "vehicle", which applies to bicycles, where Section 116 then differentiates by applying only to "motor vehicles". Often you need to infer from the omissions between different parts of legislation to determine intent and application.

Roads are provided and legislated for travelling between places on and not for competitive racing or time trails, including personal bests, which is one of the arguments against Strava.
citywomble
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 7:40 pm

Re: Cycling Fines - NSW 2005/06 - 2010/11

Postby jcjordan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:00 pm

g-boaf wrote:The bell is one thing that is now just about pointless.

It has been made irrelevant by the iPod. Ban cyclists and pedestrians from using portable music players while they are moving as an extension of the bell laws. Then the bell becomes useful again.


Fine you also then need to ban in vehicle sound systems, talking whist operating a vehicle and the removal of all sound proofing.

You also need to increase the noise made by vehicles so that you can hear them coming up behind you.



If you are so re

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk 4 Beta
James
Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
jcjordan
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:58 pm


Return to Cycling Safety and Advocacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Summernight



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit