Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

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Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby William Tern » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:41 pm

Hi all,

Office colleague commuting from Glebe to CBD was pinged this morning along with two other cyclists for riding across an intersection where the cars and pedestrians traveling in his direction had a green, but for which he had a bicycle-specific red light.

He asked the police officer if it was a safety issue (because he didn't think it was) and received the answer "it's the law". Further argument achieved nothing.

Upshot: $70 fine and possibly 3 points off his driver's license.

Stay safe,
W.
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by BNA » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:53 pm

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:53 pm

Pass the popcorn please.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby cp123 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:17 pm

and the problem with police doing their job is....?



sorry - no sympathy for your friend here. If the light was red there ARE no excuses.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:26 pm

Not getting into the legal aspect as I hate tring to eat cans o' worms...

Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:38 pm

EDIT: Nevermind; I didn't see the Cycleway bit. :oops:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:43 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Not getting into the legal aspect as I hate tring to eat cans o' worms...

Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?

Active discrimination...... just not the same emphasis as the Dutch model :roll:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby zero » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:47 pm

William Tern wrote:Hi all,

Office colleague commuting from Glebe to CBD was pinged this morning along with two other cyclists for riding across an intersection where the cars and pedestrians traveling in his direction had a green, but for which he had a bicycle-specific red light.

He asked the police officer if it was a safety issue (because he didn't think it was) and received the answer "it's the law". Further argument achieved nothing.

Upshot: $70 fine and possibly 3 points off his driver's license.

Stay safe,
W.


There are no bicycle offences that can lose you points from your car licence.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby zero » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:59 pm

cp123 wrote:and the problem with police doing their job is....?



sorry - no sympathy for your friend here. If the light was red there ARE no excuses.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV7yi02zj20

honestly why _should_ we wait for traffic lights of such terrible design. There isn't any other class of traffic that is as mistreated by traffic light as that design. You can see there it _did_ detect me because it did deign to respond to my request a couple of traffic light cycles later, and yet it still prioritises the completely empty road alongside me.

IMO its also pretty poor enforcement, that is not likely to engender respect for beat cops as the command has already been made aware that the traffic light system is broken by design.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:05 pm

About time they did this. Should set up more traffic lights such as this. :twisted:

Cyclists running red lights are part of the reason so many people hate us.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:13 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?


Sydney is a bizarre city, with bizarre cycling traffic lights which often display red bike lights despite green for all other traffic. Top it off with police who actively target these spots and you a wonderful bike friendly city. :roll:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:39 pm

There is a right-turn arrow near my home, on Burwood Highway, that works just like that bicycle light. If you come up to it when the red arrow and red lights are on you will not get the following green :x Once through traffic gets the green it seems the right turn sensor does not register any more cars coming up to the turn lane facing a red arrow. Stopped on the red arow while through traffic has the green, there is always a very looonng wait for the next green. You'll only get the green arrow if you had come up to the previous green arrow and missed it and get stopped by the red arrow while through traffic has the green. Otherwise you have to wait a full cycle of the lights (more than a full cycle really as you were already there waiting).

I find this so infuriating and time wasting that when driving I go on to the next (uncontrolled) right turn and go around the block to get home. On the bike I always do a hook turn and avoid the red arrow.

Those traffic lights need to be pulled out - their timing is crap!
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby trailgumby » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:37 pm

il padrone wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Not getting into the legal aspect as I hate tring to eat cans o' worms...

Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?

Active discrimination...... just not the same emphasis as the Dutch model :roll:


^^^ Fact.

The issue would be easily resolved.by giving either the cyclists a flashing orange symbol like they do with cars on the signalised Ped X at the western side Milsons Point station, or by giving drivers a flashing orange turn arrow.

RMS disbanded the bicycle unit years ago and we've been treated as a nuisance to be discouraged ever since. The occasional decent piece of infrastructure happens despite them, not because of them.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:11 pm

il padrone wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Not getting into the legal aspect as I hate tring to eat cans o' worms...

Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?

Active discrimination...... just not the same emphasis as the Dutch model :roll:


Just watched zeros video. What a festering pile of rancid anchovy guts that be. :roll:

A guess: Clover built the lanes but RMS sequences the lights?
Smokeboxers rant why riders use the road "when there's a perfectly good cyclelane right there"?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby rheicel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Most bike specific lights in Sydney are silly. Those lights should turn green along with pedestrian lights.
And by the way, why not watch and catch peds crossing red lights? They can get more money as there are more of them crossing red lights compared to cyclist.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:24 pm

rheicel wrote:Most bike specific lights in Sydney are silly. Those lights should turn green along with pedestrian lights.
And by the way, why not watch and catch peds crossing red lights? They can get more money as there are more of them crossing red lights compared to cyclist.

Because pinging redmanning peds is blatant revenue raising and a waste of scarce police resources, don't you read the Daily Chipwrapper?
Pinging cyclists however is the "Great Moral Challenge" in road safety...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby find_bruce » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:42 pm

Mulger bill wrote:A guess: Clover built the lanes but RMS sequences the lights?

Lucky guess :wink:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:39 pm

find_bruce wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:A guess: Clover built the lanes but RMS sequences the lights?

Lucky guess :wink:


Look at the last state elections. Cycling unfriendly party won by a landslide. And they've been openly anti-Clover too. That tells me that people don't want cycling friendly infrastructure. Believe me, some cyclists even voted for them.

And then these same people complain? :roll: Yeah, it makes superb sense.

So everyone will have to live with strong enforcement measures against cyclists and general anti-cycling policies, and take such things with dignity and respect.


Mulger bill wrote:
rheicel wrote:Most bike specific lights in Sydney are silly. Those lights should turn green along with pedestrian lights.
And by the way, why not watch and catch peds crossing red lights? They can get more money as there are more of them crossing red lights compared to cyclist.

Because pinging redmanning peds is blatant revenue raising and a waste of scarce police resources, don't you read the Daily Chipwrapper?
Pinging cyclists however is the "Great Moral Challenge" in road safety...


Sorry mate - I'm going to have to pull you up there. Police ARE taking action against pedestrians who cross against the red. You will see it frequently on Bridge Street Sydney.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby tubby74 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:35 pm

does anyone else think that if we had a flashing orange light, pelican crossing type, that a car waiting to turn left as pedestrians cross might not see a bike coming down the hill at speed behind on his left? not to mention they would probably be half into the intersection nudging the pedestrian line, blocking the path. I find it as frustrating as everyone else on the section from off Anzac bridge down to Pyrmont but I don't think that format is the answer. it would work 90% of the time as there's so little car traffic relative to the bikes waiting to go, but I still think it would cause accidents
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:46 pm

g-boaf wrote:Sorry mate - I'm going to have to pull you up there. Police ARE taking action against pedestrians who cross against the red. You will see it frequently on Bridge Street Sydney.

Nothing wrong with that. If you choose to take the non legal option-for whatever reasons-then whinging about being pinged is more'n a trifle churlish.

Maybe the Sydney Chipwrappers have a different editorial stance to the Melbourne ones? Every enforcement blitz on ped activities leads to an avalanche of public indignation, often led by the Feral editor making the same assertations as described above and often throwing in the pushy rego red herring.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby macca33 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:41 pm

So the bloke cycled through a bicycle-specific red light and was booked, yet it isn't his own stupid fault.....ah, okay then.....

I watched the Youtube video and can see no issue either - the rider was waiting for all of 45 seconds for the bicycle signal to change to green....WOW! :roll:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:17 pm

macca33 wrote:So the bloke cycled through a bicycle-specific red light and was booked, yet it isn't his own stupid fault.....ah, okay then.....

I watched the Youtube video and can see no issue either - the rider was waiting for all of 45 seconds for the bicycle signal to change to green....WOW! :roll:


Ah yes! Somehow common sense is now relegated to being your "own stupid fault". Clearly following rigid rules is for the intelligent. :roll:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:29 pm

macca33 wrote:So the bloke cycled through a bicycle-specific red light and was booked, yet it isn't his own stupid fault.....ah, okay then.....

Please stop putting words in people's mouths. I don't believe anyone here has said any such thing. The issue is all about equity of treatment on the roads and bicycle facilities. 'Design for discrimination' is a poor traffic planning strategy.

macca33 wrote:I watched the Youtube video and can see no issue either - the rider was waiting for all of 45 seconds for the bicycle signal to change to green....WOW! :roll:

Come and sit at a few similar such sensor-operated lights near me and you'll find it will easily be 2-4mins waaitiing ! Of course these are mostly lights that affect cars as well but quite a few have poor sensors of bicycles late at night.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby zero » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:31 am

macca33 wrote:So the bloke cycled through a bicycle-specific red light and was booked, yet it isn't his own stupid fault.....ah, okay then.....

I watched the Youtube video and can see no issue either - the rider was waiting for all of 45 seconds for the bicycle signal to change to green....WOW! :roll:


Ah macca, the entire green phase I was ignored. That _causes_ riders to ignore the traffic lights. ie given that adherence to the traffic signals is a desired component of traffic signal design, they should never be designed such that they make users think they are broken and thus ignore them. ie its the RMS responsibility to ensure that traffic lights are not likely to do that.

This is a common theme in NSW treatment of pedestrians and cyclists.

Also the phases are short because its 11pm in the video. If the video is taken at 3pm, those phases are much longer, but the method of the phasing doesn't change, ie I'd expect therefore to be sitting for 2+ minutes staring at an empty cycleway ahead, with no drivers turning across my path, because the cross road is short and always full anyway and the kicker is, I expect to do that several times in a row along that road. Had I ridden on the road at 11pm, I would have saved 5 minutes in that trip. At 3pm, on a Sunday, I'd probably save 10 minutes (because the lights can't distinguish sunday from Wednesday).
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby briztoon » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:32 am

zero wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV7yi02zj20


What the ! was that. Why doesn't the bike lane turn green with the car lane? And then the bike lane turns green, but the car lane stays red? I'm sorry I see no sense in those. Do bikes in Sydney HAVE to ride in those bike lanes?

And why are both bike lanes on the right side of the road? That would freak me out, watching cars passing me in the opposite direction zipping past my left handle bar.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby richbee » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:07 am

Solution is simple, ride in the road as it's clearly not practical to use the bike lane
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