Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby The 2nd Womble » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:10 am

Again BNA expecting everyone to obey the law except us. Yawn etc yadda yadda.
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by BNA » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:48 am

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:48 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:Again BNA expecting everyone to obey the law except us. Yawn etc yadda yadda.

Womble. How you come to that conclusion staggers me.

richbee wrote:Solution is simple, ride in the road as it's clearly not practical to use the bike lane

Unfortunately you'll then find yourself blocking traffic when the lights go green without a bicycle light. The bicycle lights will still apply to you.

This just shows how ridiculous having a red bicycle light during a green cycle is.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:35 am

richbee wrote:Solution is simple, ride in the road as it's clearly not practical to use the bike lane


It's actually more practical to use that bike lane, it is empty in the video, separate from car traffic. I don't think the "practical" argument will wash.

human909 wrote:This just shows how ridiculous having a red bicycle light during a green cycle is.


It is not ridiculous - it is done that way deliberately. Obviously they want slow speeds along there and also they want to frustrate cyclists.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby find_bruce » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:30 am

g-boaf wrote:
richbee wrote:Solution is simple, ride in the road as it's clearly not practical to use the bike lane


It's actually more practical to use that bike lane, it is empty in the video, separate from car traffic. I don't think the "practical" argument will wash.

What bike lane ? The cycleways do not meet the definition of a bike lane and are a bike path, hence no obligation to use them at all - unless of course you are going contra flow along King St.
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human909 wrote:This just shows how ridiculous having a red bicycle light during a green cycle is.

It is not ridiculous - it is done that way deliberately. Obviously they want slow speeds along there and also they want to frustrate cyclists.

The RMS can be variously motivated by malice, ambivalence or incompetence - net result is the same for cyclists.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby zero » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:12 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Again BNA expecting everyone to obey the law except us. Yawn etc yadda yadda.


In my video Womble, I obeyed the law. I also obey the law when I travel through there without the video.

The question is why do you expect the average rational person to do so, when the payout is drastic (vanish over the horizon level time reduction), for not obeying the law, and the answer is they don't, and that by building systems with such massive benefits for not obeying the law, you cannot expect to see anything other than lawbreaking amongst the average citizenry.

By the way my question was a poser, ie a literary construct.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby richbee » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:48 pm

human909 wrote:
richbee wrote:Solution is simple, ride in the road as it's clearly not practical to use the bike lane

Unfortunately you'll then find yourself blocking traffic when the lights go green without a bicycle light. The bicycle lights will still apply to you.


Under the NSW road rules, a bicycle is considered a vehicle. Therefore if you're in the traffic lane with the other traffic you're subject to the same rules and the normal red/amber/green cycle applies to you. The bicycle lights can only apply if you're in the bicycle lane, though the downside is you'll have to wait on red when the bicycle lane is green.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:22 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Again BNA expecting everyone to obey the law except us. Yawn etc yadda yadda.

Really Dave? THAT's what you're taking from this? :o

This is an advocacy issue more than legality. To my eye, this is discrimination by design. Clovers cycleways were conceived and installed to enhance safety and amenity for both riders AND drivers by seperating disparate modes of transport in what from my reading is typically a network of high pressure traffic sewers. It should be a win/win for all but instead forces one mode to accept unnecessarily lesser treatment due to what a reasonable outside observer would most likely assume to be purely down to pigheadedness on the part of the engineers tasked with sequencing traffic light operations along these corridors. Can you think of any other segment of society that would be expected to accept such shabby treatment without complaint or indeed mass civil disobedience?

I look forward to input from traffic engineers and urban planners wishing to refute (with appropriate data) the above observations and request that any member with knowledge of other videos showing sequencing along any of these routes post links to further inform my opinion.

Now: For the record...(The shoutiness of which I apologise for in advance but I wish to ensure that the pointscoring pedants have no excuse for failing to see it.)
I do not condone or advocate failure to observe traffic signals or any road rule. Ever. I fully support the interception and appropriate punishment of ALL road users who are observed flouting the law.

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:24 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Again BNA expecting everyone to obey the law except us. Yawn etc yadda yadda.

I'll say it again - where did you get that idea from? Please stop putting words in people's mouths.

No-one in previous posts here is advocating rule-breaking :roll:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby find_bruce » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:33 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Again BNA expecting everyone to obey the law except us. Yawn etc yadda yadda.

I expect everyone to breach the road rules at some time - occasionally for good reasons, but mostly for bad. Cyclists are no different.

Plenty of research by criminologists into why people comply with or break laws. Two primary reasons include whether the person
  1. considers that the law treats them fairly
  2. their chances of being caught
I would suggest that both factors are in play with regard to the lights on Sydney cycleways.

Based on nothing more than my own observations, I would suggest that compliance with red lights along Union St Pyrmont improved markedly when they turned off the faulty detector and put the lights on a timer that gave a green bike every light cycle.

Of course perception works both ways - the driver does not see the faulty light or the unreasonably long delay, all they perceive is the cyclist going through the red light. One of the reasons behind calls for rego is the perception that the car driver will be caught, while the cyclist goes unpunished & that this is unfair. Again the question of the consequences of the action & who bears the outcome of the risk is lost on most

One final point - threads like this one also have a positive effect in reminding cyclists that they may be caught & fined. Similarly articles in the mainstream press of police blitzes serve a similar purpose with drivers.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby William Tern » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:08 am

find_bruce wrote:One final point - threads like this one also have a positive effect in reminding cyclists that they may be caught & fined. Similarly articles in the mainstream press of police blitzes serve a similar purpose with drivers.


...which is exactly why I posted it in the first place. No editorial content, just a report of what happened earlier this week.

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:44 pm

I'm thinking we need some more anti-cyclist sting campaigns after I had to stop to avoid a fast flying commuter cyclist on Bridge Street this afternoon - he blew through two red lights at 40km/h or more. Perhaps Police need to tackle these guys to the ground. :roll:

They'll kill themselves. He'd have no chance of stoping.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:04 pm

I don't give a damn if the dill alluded to above ends up in a bag, it's the innocents who will be part of his demise I feel for.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby gorilla monsoon » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:47 pm

g-boaf wrote:I'm thinking we need some more anti-cyclist sting campaigns after I had to stop to avoid a fast flying commuter cyclist on Bridge Street this afternoon - he blew through two red lights at 40km/h or more. Perhaps Police need to tackle these guys to the ground. :roll:

They'll kill themselves. He'd have no chance of stoping.


Shhhh..... You'll have someone suggesting registration plates next so you could have dobbed him in. :D
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby sogood » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:02 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?

No need to ask why. Just dismount, push one's bike and then remount on the other side... Ride away! :mrgreen:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:21 am

gorilla monsoon wrote:Shhhh..... You'll have someone suggesting registration plates next so you could have dobbed him in. :D


Yes, indeed. I believe that someone has already suggested registration plates numerous times. If the bike courier I saw this morning can have a sign on the seat-post saying "it's showtime" then rego is possible too. :twisted: Interesting, this morning all the red-light runners were not "lycra louts" as the usual stereotype goes...

sogood wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Why was there a bike red with car and ped greens for the same route? :?


No need to ask why. Just dismount, push one's bike and then remount on the other side... Ride away! :mrgreen:


Quite! I'll bet the Police will be pleased with that. Same as those speed limits for bikes which are slower than the speed of runners. So just carry your bike while you run faster than 10km/h. :twisted:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby biker jk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:22 am

Today's Telegraph has an article and photo of a cyclist who ran a red Kent St cycleway light and collided with a car. The cyclist was also not wearing a helmet. Fined $67 x 2.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:33 am

Piss ant fines

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby outnabike » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:44 am

biker jk wrote:Today's Telegraph has an article and photo of a cyclist who ran a red Kent St cycleway light and collided with a car. The cyclist was also not wearing a helmet. Fined $67 x 2.


That just makes me wonder. Forgetting about the injustice or not of red light running, but if I have an accident in a situation like that and being in the car, how do you get a persons name and address verified at an accident?
I happen to have my license on me whilst riding the bike, but it is not mandatory, and with out rego or a license you can be told any thing.

I saw on one of the "Stupid Cyclist" videos a bloke hitting another bike, causing damage, and trying to just ride off. I really hate the thought of having to make some sort of citizens arrest after a bike has bingled up my car. Is this a valid concern?
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby zero » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:46 pm

I've witnessed a motorist sideswipe a parked car, snag the multithousand dollar plastic bumper and snap it off, and then "because they saw me" pantomine leaving contact details - where I subsequently found no contact details were left (to which I helpfully "fixed" the problem by leaving the numberplate and my witness contact details).

I've also witnessed a car driver fail to negotiate a bend, rear end a parked car and then subsequently rear end it twice more before he realised his steering was broken, and then when the driver heard me yelling at him to stop, he drove off with the broken steering regardless, leaving the car he hit 3 times with its boot punched in all the way to the c-pillar and then proceed to drive the broken steering car out onto a 6 lane road as fast as the sideways wheel would allow.

Most of the times if the cyclist hits your car hard enough to do anything more than scratches, they won't be leaving the scene.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:29 pm

outnabike wrote:I saw on one of the "Stupid Cyclist" videos a bloke hitting another bike, causing damage, and trying to just ride off. I really hate the thought of having to make some sort of citizens arrest after a bike has bingled up my car. Is this a valid concern?


I hate the thought of you making an illegal "citizens arrest" too. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Your concerns are as valid as being concerned about the mugger in the street not offering his license as proof of identification so you can report the incident. Motor vehicles are the exception. They have proven themselves to be such a menace that identification has been made mandatory. Cyclist don't seem to be any more of a menace than pedestrians. :idea:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:29 pm

outnabike wrote:I saw on one of the "Stupid Cyclist" videos a bloke hitting another bike, causing damage, and trying to just ride off. I really hate the thought of having to make some sort of citizens arrest after a bike has bingled up my car. Is this a valid concern?


I hate the thought of you making an illegal "citizens arrest" too. You have no right to arrest or detain somebody who runs into your bike.

Your concerns are as valid as being concerned about the mugger in the street not offering his license as proof of identification so you can report the incident. Motor vehicles are the exception. They have proven themselves to be such a menace that identification has been made mandatory. Cyclist don't seem to be any more of a menace than pedestrians. :idea:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:49 pm

Criminal damage.
http://www.police.act.gov.au/crime-and- ... rrest.aspx


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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:35 pm

I may be misguided, but I am of the opinion that a simple traffic collision would not constitute criminal damage. :idea:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby zero » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:52 pm

il padrone wrote:I may be misguided, but I am of the opinion that a simple traffic collision would not constitute criminal damage. :idea:


Yes, I thought criminal damage would require mens rea.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:31 pm

(b) being recklessly indifferent as to whether his or her conduct damages property,
is guilty of an offence.”


Breaking a known road law and causing damage.
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