Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:24 pm

skull wrote:
(b) being recklessly indifferent as to whether his or her conduct damages property,
is guilty of an offence.”


Breaking a known road law and causing damage.

Still don't see how that relates to a simple traffic collision, nor how it could be deemed "criminal'??? :? :?:

You seem to be pretty significantly misreading the text, never mind the context.
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by BNA » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:41 pm

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:41 pm

not hard to work out

You intentionally break a road rule without the intention to cause damage, but it does cause damage. Then try to do a runner, a person may then carry out a citizens arrest and detain you till the police arrive.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:41 pm

skull wrote:
(b) being recklessly indifferent as to whether his or her conduct damages property,
is guilty of an offence.”


Breaking a known road law and causing damage.


Which is not criminal damage. It is negligence which needs to be claimed in a civil suit.

skull wrote:not hard to work out

You intentionally break a road rule without the intention to cause damage, but it does cause damage. Then try to do a runner, a person may then carry out a citizens arrest and detain you till the police arrive.

This isn't a game which you can just make up your own laws. It isn't even clear that the POLICE can arrest you!
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:46 pm

add to that attempting to flee the scene of an accident.

Human you seem think it is fine to disregard a number of road rules, so I don't listen to any advice you give in relation to any laws. Well take with a grain of salt anyway.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:51 pm

skull wrote:add to that attempting to flee the scene of an accident.


Your honour not only did "skull" smash into me on his bicycle but he then assaulted me and illegally detained me. :roll:


skull wrote:Human you seem think it is fine to disregard a number of road rules, so I don't listen to any advice you give in relation to any laws. Well take with a grain of salt anyway.


:lol: The legal consequences of attempting a citizens arrest illegally is far worse than going through a red light at an empty intersection!
Last edited by human909 on Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:55 pm

skull wrote:add to that attempting to flee the scene of an accident.

Human you seem think it is fine to disregard a number of road rules, so I don't listen to any advice you give in relation to any laws. Well take with a grain of salt anyway.

Image



Making up more rules??

Hit & run is only a criminal offence where there has been any injuries sustained.

BTW, motorists manage to do it all the time and often avoid criminal sanctions. Google Eugene McGee

McGee was charged with causing death by dangerous driving but after lengthy legal proceedings was ultimately found guilty of the lesser charge of driving without due care. He was fined $3100 and lost his driver's licence for 12 months.
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:59 pm

il padrone wrote:Hit & run is only a criminal offence where there has been any injuries sustained.

Does hit and run apply to bicycles? Many of these offences only apply to motor vehicles.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:01 pm

instead of trying to attempt veiled attacks through the use of emotives and just being a general nuisance.

Show me where I mentioned assaulting anyone.

Scenario
Human909 thinks red lights do not mean anything to him so goes through
Collects skull's who had the green light
Injures skull and damages skull's bike
Human909 attempts to get up ride off from accident without exchanging details
Skull detains human909
Skull also calls police

Where is the illegal citizen's arrest and assault?
I think you'll find that is all ok.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:07 pm

skull wrote:Show me where I mentioned assaulting anyone.


skull wrote:Scenario
Human909 thinks red lights do not mean anything to him so goes through
Collects skull's who had the green light
Injures skull and damages skull's bike
Human909 attempts to get up ride off from accident without exchanging details
detains human909
Skull also calls police

Where is the illegal citizen's arrest and assault?
I think you'll find that is all ok.

Done.

Unless you have the magic imobilisation wand, I think you'll find this constitutes assault. Laying a hand on anyone against their will, preventing them from moving on is assault.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:11 pm

skull wrote:Human909 thinks red lights do not mean anything to him so goes through...

Ummm, I'd like to see some data backing that very broad that satement thanks.

If the word "some" was between the "thinks" and "red" we'd be on the same page...
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:19 pm

il padrone wrote:
Unless you have the magic imobilisation wand, I think you'll find this constitutes assault. Laying a hand on anyone against their will, preventing them from moving on is assault.


No it isn't.

The legislation states, in connection with the use of force in making an arrest, that:

A person shall not, in the course of arresting another person for an offence, use more force, or subject the other person to greater indignity, than is necessary and reasonable to make the arrest or to prevent the escape of the other person after the arrest.


The use of reasonable force is acceptable. You cannot detain them too violently and have a duty of care. However if the person you 'arrested' is not charged by the police they them may sue you for false imprisonment.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:27 pm

skull wrote:
il padrone wrote:
Unless you have the magic imobilisation wand, I think you'll find this constitutes assault. Laying a hand on anyone against their will, preventing them from moving on is assault.


No it isn't.

The legislation states, in connection with the use of force in making an arrest, that:

A person shall not, in the course of arresting another person for an offence, use more force, or subject the other person to greater indignity, than is necessary and reasonable to make the arrest or to prevent the escape of the other person after the arrest.


The use of reasonable force is acceptable. You cannot detain them too violently and have a duty of care. However if the person you 'arrested' is not charged by the police they them may sue you for false imprisonment.

Fail.

You've missed the key point again...... this is all in regard to a criminal offence. You know, like robbing a bank, willful assault, theft, sexual assault etc. Minor traffic offences do not cut it.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:28 pm

As has been pointed out. A traffic accident is not assault, theft or criminal damage. It is not clear that the POLICE have the power to arrest under the described circumstances. Let alone a civilian. Either way. If you want to go ahead and attempt perform a citizen's arrest then you are free to do so. Just as I am free to go through a red light.

But the consequences for your decision may not be to your liking. :wink:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:33 pm

leaving the scene of an accident doesn't cut?
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:41 pm

146 Offence of failing to stop and assist after impact causing injury

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:
(a) a vehicle or horse being driven or ridden by the person on a road is involved in an impact occasioning the death of, or injury to, another person, and
(b) the person knows, or ought reasonably to know, that the vehicle or horse has been involved in an impact occasioning injury to another person, and
(c) the person fails to stop and give any assistance that may be necessary and that it is in the person’s power to give.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... /s146.html

"vehicle" means:
(a) any description of vehicle on wheels (including a light rail vehicle) but not including any other vehicle used on a railway or tramway, or
(b) any description of tracked vehicle (such as a bulldozer), or any description of vehicle that moves on revolving runners inside endless tracks, that is not used exclusively on a railway or tramway, or
(c) any other description of vehicle prescribed by the statutory rules.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... ml#vehicle
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:46 pm

human909 wrote:But the consequences for your decision may not be to your liking. :wink:


Tough guy. :roll:

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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:51 pm

skull wrote:
human909 wrote:But the consequences for your decision may not be to your liking. :wink:


Tough guy. :roll:

Dreaming


Huh? I was talking about the legal repercussions.

I'm not the one here advocating physical assault on others. I'm out.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby skull » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:54 pm

ok I miss read that. I thought you were trying to be a smart arse.

Anyway the legislation, linked above. Leaving scene of an accident resulting in injury. Yeah pretty sure citizens arrest will fly.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:12 am

skull wrote:leaving the scene of an accident doesn't cut?

The key point here is the consequences of said traffic accident. If there's been injury, yes both parties are obligated to stop, and fleeing will bring on charges of 'failing to stop' - very serious if a death is involved. Citizen's arrest may be an option. But in a damage-only collison, no crime is involved, not a serious offence. Attempting a 'citizen's arrest' in such circumstances would lay you open to assault charges.



Going right back to the original post on this aspect, the discussion was about damage-only collisions:
outnabike wrote:I saw on one of the "Stupid Cyclist" videos a bloke hitting another bike, causing damage, and trying to just ride off. I really hate the thought of having to make some sort of citizens arrest after a bike has bingled up my car. Is this a valid concern?
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby outnabike » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:05 pm

il padrone wrote:
skull wrote:leaving the scene of an accident doesn't cut?

The key point here is the consequences of said traffic accident. If there's been injury, yes both parties are obligated to stop, and fleeing will bring on charges of 'failing to stop' - very serious if a death is involved. Citizen's arrest may be an option. But in a damage-only collision, no crime is involved, not a serious offence. Attempting a 'citizen's arrest' in such circumstances would lay you open to assault charges.
Going right back to the original post on this aspect, the discussion was about damage-only collisions:
outnabike wrote:I saw on one of the "Stupid Cyclist" videos a bloke hitting another bike, causing damage, and trying to just ride off. I really hate the thought of having to make some sort of citizens arrest after a bike has bingled up my car. Is this a valid concern?


Thanks il padrone,
And of course I am the last bloke to grab some one, but anger at a person riding of after hitting you, either with a car or a bike can happen. Some times an injury doesn't seem much until the next day and in an accident you still want some justice.
I just think if you are sitting there with a busted wheel and the other rider just wants to ride off, he gets away with it and you have no recourse if they don't want to give out their particulars. Police may be not in the picture or even a possibility.
It seems like rough justice. I didn't intend a hijack of the thread and I know it is probably a rare occurrence.
But when you have a ninja with no lights hit you a Kmart bmx, you may want your bike repair paid for. And how do you get back to them or even identify them? It all works out to a hit and run.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby wob » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:01 pm

:idea: These ninja bmx'ers should be registered so we can report them! :twisted:
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby kunama » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:30 pm

....
Last edited by kunama on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby KenGS » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:58 pm

Gives all govt employees a bad name
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby il padrone » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:46 pm

kunama wrote:A cyclist patiently waiting is seen by many people and can only send a positive message to the pedestrians and motorists nearby ....
It only takes one single cyclist disobeying the law and riding through a red to undo all that goodwill.

Whether it is fair or not, it is the law ..........

Having had occasions where, while just so stopped at red-lights as you describe as so admirable, I have been abused, had horns blasted at me, and had drivers push their vehicles forward towards me; I wonder about whether the lawful behaviour is really noticed at all. Not a frequent occurrence, but these things have all been done to me. While I have been following the laws applicable :roll:

Some motorists abuse us, treat us like ferals, hippies, marginalised losers. The result is that some cyclists, many even, see themselves as 'on the edge' and behave in whatever way they can get away with to survive and get to where they want to go. Cue renegade hoon-biker and lycra-lizard :roll:

Not excusing any law-breaking of course. Just saying this is all a matter of the point-of-view you take, and something not readily changed - until far more people ride bikes.
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Re: Heads up for Sydney cycleway red light runners

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:40 am

kunama wrote:Something to consider for those who feel hard done by when waiting for the light to change for a couple of minutes:

A cyclist patiently waiting is seen by many people and can only send a positive message to the pedestrians and motorists nearby ....
It only takes one single cyclist disobeying the law and riding through a red to undo all that goodwill


And what of the car drivers who break the law. Nobody cares about them. And nobody cares about a cyclist doing the right thing either. Regardless of what you do, cyclists are hated because nobody wants them on the road, simple as that. If it isn't law breaking, then it is the lycra, if it isn't that, then it is the not paying their way, if not that, then just the simple fact that they are getting ahead while Mr Stuck-in-Car is in the traffic jam going nowhere. The drivers will always find something to hate.

I'm the biggest supporter of obeying the law, but it doesn't do anything to improve drivers hatred towards us. The only thing that will do that is a very big stick swung at them to make them behave.
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