"Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:58 pm

Xplora wrote:I reiterate my first point - you have to make the failure of a driver to be so unpalatable that they can't consider a stupid move like breaking traction in an uncontrolled way, or racing mates, or close shaving people. It's not different to pointing a loaded gun at people. Penalise to reflect that. We have the technology and capacity to finally say "there is no excuse now".

I saw a car turn left at an intersection the other night and almost get cleaned up by a car that was racing another car at the lights. The road was clear when the driver turned left but the racing driver came so close to crashing into them it made me feel sick. I don't think that any kind of driver training will stop that kind of behaviour, so it is down to penalties to try to reduce that kind of thing.
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by BNA » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:38 pm

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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:38 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:Interesting. The motoring writer in our local paper was advocating the exact same thing a few weeks ago. Reckoned people should have to ride a pushy or a small capacity scooter as part of the licence approval process. Absolutely agree with him.

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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby gorilla monsoon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:15 pm

Don't think so. I'll look on Saturday. Doesn't he write for a classic car magazine or something?
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:20 pm

He writes for lots of magazines and websites on cars. Also classic cars. And he is s committed cycling enthusiast and commuter 8)
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Re:

Postby Percrime » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:47 pm

queequeg wrote:
Percrime wrote:
Now you get your car learners at 16 You have to do about a trillion hours.. at least 5 times the hours you have to do to get a PPL. Less study but. SO you are going to be spending all that time learning off your dad



I think I got my PPL at around the 55 hour mark. I think at the time the bare minimum hours you could have was about 40 before you were permitted to sit the test, and that was after you achieved the minimum score in the theory exam.

Just think though, if they introduced a driving licence scheme similar to what is required for a PPL, I reckon 50% would never pass. Some people just have no clue what is going on around then, can't read dynamic situations and just have no basic spatial awareness (2.5 metre car + 80cm wide cyclist does not fit in 3m wide lane). Those people need to be kept away from cars.


IIRC its 15 before you can solo. BUT thats not my point. Cos that test is hard. And actually for all you do a trillion hours for the driving licence the testers only fail about 20% (and have to explain why if they fail more) Its a test a monkey could pass.
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Re: Re:

Postby Percrime » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:50 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:I agree there are some people that just should not be allowed to drive. My brother is one of them. He has crashed so many times I have lost count. Say someone wants to be a pilot. They don't mess around with the training or the testing. You don't get a licence until you can properly fly a plane. It's a shame the standard for a motor vehicle is not higher.


This.

I do know of one person who failed his licence 6 times. Now since they only fail one in 5.. how bad was he? Well a couple of days worth of bad anyway
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:10 pm

My son was pinged on his licence at the first attempt. The reason given? Because he was not racing straight up to stop signs...... because he was putting the indicator on too long................................. :shock: :roll: :evil:

Penalising and persecuting the more cautious driver. Now that makes sense :? Image
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Xplora » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:01 pm

My understanding of driver test fails is mainly nerves, rather than genuinely bad driving. I think we'd be better served by the truck testing regime - you cruise around for a few hours and there you go. It would honestly be cheaper than requiring 120 hours. You put someone behind the wheel for half a day in a number of conditions and you know if they should be allowed to drive. Once done, you make the tester criminally liable for fraudulent passes. Easy peasy. Skin in the game is a wonderful thing.

I don't think the burden should be related to the learning side - some people learn quickly, others do not. You can't stop people being learners if they pass the test for Ls... but you can put a higher barrier for licence holders... and I am CERTAIN people would prefer better more attentive drivers being covered by their CTP green slip money than patching up the wounded.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Ross » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:01 am

I cringe when I'm at the local shopping centre and I watch people trying to park small 4 cyl cars (unsuccessfully or with several attempts) into parking spots that someone with some reasonable skill could get a truck in and out of. Some might say "it's not that important, it's only parking" but to my way of thinking if they struggle with the basic stuff how are they going to cope with harder and more important things (like not running over cyclists...)?

It would be a good idea as part of driver's licence training to spend a few hours or so riding a bicycle on the road and being a passenger in a large truck.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Xplora » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:56 am

+111111111 Ross. Parking tells you a lot about a driver - just like scratches down the panels :shock:
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:07 pm

^^^^^^^^ One of the most hilarious incidents I witnessed in a shopping centre car park was a young lady "guiding" her partner into an end space. One side was a concrete pillar, the other was another car.
After about five attempts of reversing the car back in a straight line without success, the intrepid driver made contact (on the drivers side!) with the pillar. Rather than stop, the lady kept motioning him to continue, oblivious to the awful scraping noise as the pillar gouged a 4m long gash down the side of the car.
My friends and I were almost in tears from the laughter, especially when the driver got out and started yelling at the lady for not warning him about the pillar.

I seriously wonder how these people passed their test, but then I was told that they didn't necessarily have to have ever had a test if they were transferring from an overseas licence. I am guessing this was one of those cases because not being able to reverse a car in a straight line makes me wonder how they function in moving traffic.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Gordonhooker » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:23 pm

It must be a bit different now, but when I grew up and my children and older grand children grew up we rode bikes everywhere including going to school through the school year and rode them right up to when we/they went and got their drivers license. So I am wondering why some feel cycling should be included as part of driver training when most have many years of it. :?:
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby gorilla monsoon » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:30 pm

I'd suggest you are the exception rather than the rule, Gordon.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Gordonhooker » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:33 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:I'd suggest you are the exception rather than the rule, Gordon.



given what sample of the population?
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:07 pm

Gordonhooker wrote:
gorilla monsoon wrote:I'd suggest you are the exception rather than the rule, Gordon.



given what sample of the population?

Mainly the very young to mid teens. Once the streets were full of kids on bikes outside of school hours. Not any more :( Riding is for too many seen as not a viable transport option so these formative years where kids learn some road sense before being put in charge of lethal steel are instead spent contemplating the scenery from the vertiginous isolation of the back of mums bullybus.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby il padrone » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:59 pm

Xplora wrote:Parking tells you a lot about a driver

I'd beg to differ. The level of spatial judgement in close, very low speed maneuvering has precious little to do with whether you are likely to get tanked up and drive at .09, or speed down a busy urban freeway, or hoon around back streets at 1am doing donuts. Spatial judgement takes some time to build up; attitude is inbred.

I found the parking the trickiest part of my licence test, but in the first 5 years of my driving I had not a single collision and not a single speeding fine.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby human909 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:30 pm

There is a huge difference between a skilled driver and a safe driver. Good parking skills is one indication of a skilled driver. My mother isn't particularly skilled but she is cautious and her driving record in accidents and fines is excellent.

When I got my license after only 20 hours behind the wheel I couldn't parallel park at all. Nobody had taught me and it is not required for the license test (not parking between two cars!). I was certainly far from a skilled driver when I got my license. However I wasn't silly and I knew my ability so I was a still safe.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby DavidS » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:21 pm

I tend to agree that parking is not a very good indication of skill. That said I do have a laugh at many peoples' attempts to park. My partner's car is a Falcon wagon and I can get it into small spots and in car parks can often get it into a spot in one go. Then I watch some little hatch attempt the same task and they end up doing a three point turn to get into the parking spot. It is hilarious how bad some people are. Not that I was any good when I got my licence, took me a few years to get parking right.

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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby queequeg » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:25 am

^^^^^^ My driving instructor was brutal. He made me do reverse parallel parks up steep hills, down steep hills, outside high schools at 3pm (I was 20 when I got my L's). He rarely gave me an easy parking situation.

I disagree about poor parking ability being an indicator of poor skill. That is exactly what it is. If you can't get a car into an empty space between two stationary objects, how can you deal with a constantly changing environment? It is an indication of poor decision making and planning. I reckon most people learn parking by trial and error, but it is actually quite easy if you do it correctly.
Like a botched landing in a plane, if the approach is not stable then stop, go around and try again. Don't continue and end up on the footpath running someone over.
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Re:

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:08 pm

queequeg wrote:Like a botched landing in a plane, if the approach is not stable then stop, go around and try again. Don't continue and end up on the footpath running someone over.

Yep, I do it regularly just getting into my driveway. (Reverse steep descent and sharp curve with a couple obstacles) If the line is off by the time the rear doors are level with the fence then it won't ever get any better. Pull away and redo it.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re:

Postby find_bruce » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:29 pm

queequeg wrote:^^^^^^ My driving instructor was brutal. He made me do reverse parallel parks up steep hills, down steep hills, outside high schools at 3pm (I was 20 when I got my L's). He rarely gave me an easy parking situation.

I disagree about poor parking ability being an indicator of poor skill. That is exactly what it is. If you can't get a car into an empty space between two stationary objects, how can you deal with a constantly changing environment? It is an indication of poor decision making and planning. I reckon most people learn parking by trial and error, but it is actually quite easy if you do it correctly.
Like a botched landing in a plane, if the approach is not stable then stop, go around and try again. Don't continue and end up on the footpath running someone over.

I always find it ironic that some drivers think they are able to safely judge a 5 or 10 cm pass, but are unable to park within 30 cm of the kerb cause they might scratch their wheels
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Re: Re:

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:43 pm

find_bruce wrote:...but are unable to park within 30 cm of the kerb cause they might scratch their wheels

I'm sure you've noticed that they only do this when there's a doorzonelane to buffer them from other smokeboxes. I fold their mirrors back if in the mood, no damage but sends a subtle message.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby outnabike » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:52 am

g-boaf wrote:I'd make them ride 200km a week for 5 weeks before they can get their drivers licence. This might bring the average motorist around to a different point of view.


Hi g-boaf,I hope you are not serious and this was written with some humour. :D

I reckon stay away from all evangelists, and flag wavers with a zealous streak. We were always taught "God save us from Zealot's"

Whist you have to have a belief in what you want to push, realise that even a new person to cycling, can only drive short distances, has trouble with the fit and that's not talking even about getting saddle sore.

And then there is the other believers that have their barrow to push; lets see....

The truckies will demand 200 hours in a semi , that will sort out the pusher in, left passer, cyclist etc....
The cabbie will demand 200 hours to sort the Sunday drivers out, and them what never do city driving, ......
The bus driver will require 200 hours to let e'm see what his job is like as well....
Motor Bikes will want 200 hours to prove that they ought to be allowed in bus lanes, bike lanes and getting in between 100 km an hour traffic....
Forby drivers want them stupid cyclists doing 200 hours to see just how cyclists get on their goat.....

I can see the sentiment involved but lets not start believing our own BS. Cyclists or any one else has to be believable :D . :D
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:27 pm

I personally don't have an issue with the laundry list, outnabike, even if it was intended in jest. Australian society is extremely self centred, and rather myopic on a great many things. This isn't a problem in itself, but you can't combine minimal care about the people outside your car with the 2 ton death machine with rego plates that the average Australian holds a steering wheel for. It IS a recipe for disaster and freedom must be tempered with the risks it brings. Why CAN'T a driver spend a dozen hours driving a bus, supervised? Even picking some easy routes, it is a challenge spatially to drive them. Trucks, same deal. I wouldn't have a problem forcing Forby drivers to attempt some precision parking in a Corolla to demonstrate how poor their vehicle is at parking, unless mounting a gutter is needed. One of the great challenges we face on the road is a lack of perspective. Walking a mile in another's shoes is the only way to get it, if you are too arrogant to accept the wisdom from your driving instructor.
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Re: "Compulsory cycling as part of driver training ..."

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:38 pm

outnabike wrote:
g-boaf wrote:I'd make them ride 200km a week for 5 weeks before they can get their drivers licence. This might bring the average motorist around to a different point of view.


Hi g-boaf,I hope you are not serious and this was written with some humour. :D

I reckon stay away from all evangelists, and flag wavers with a zealous streak. We were always taught "God save us from Zealot's"

Whist you have to have a belief in what you want to push, realise that even a new person to cycling, can only drive short distances, has trouble with the fit and that's not talking even about getting saddle sore.

And then there is the other believers that have their barrow to push; lets see....

The truckies will demand 200 hours in a semi , that will sort out the pusher in, left passer, cyclist etc....
The cabbie will demand 200 hours to sort the Sunday drivers out, and them what never do city driving, ......
The bus driver will require 200 hours to let e'm see what his job is like as well....
Motor Bikes will want 200 hours to prove that they ought to be allowed in bus lanes, bike lanes and getting in between 100 km an hour traffic....
Forby drivers want them stupid cyclists doing 200 hours to see just how cyclists get on their goat.....

I can see the sentiment involved but lets not start believing our own BS. Cyclists or any one else has to be believable :D . :D


Actually, and you will be in a steaming rage about this, I was being fairly serious.

Spending time in someone elses situation is the best way to give you a very different point of view.

A new learner driver spending time as a cyclist would give them a very real appreciation of the difficulties faced by bicycle riders. It will also cut through the rhetoric of the dreaded tabloid journalists and shock jocks.

This approach is proven to work - and I can provide evidence to back that up. Consider the SR-71 spy-plane crew. Each of them spending a day in the other persons shoes (in the training simulator) quickly gives both crew members a greater appreciation of the workload of the other guy (or girl in the case of Marta Bohn-Meyer) and improves the way the crew members interact with each other. This applies to nearly any kind of situation involving the actions of many people in a group environment.

I'm not an evangelist, I'm not a zealot either. I just ride my bike, lots.
Last edited by g-boaf on Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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