No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

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No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby wellington_street » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:12 pm

There's a silly situation in Perth, where the newly two-way 'cycling street' Murray Street has a right turn ban at Milligan Street. This is actually a pretty desirable movement for cyclists as Milligan Street leads onto the Fremantle/Mitchell PSPs at Perth Arena so banning this movement really reduces the attractiveness of Murray St for cyclists.

Then I had a thought - cyclists are permitted to do hook turns. Would this be a contravention of the "No Right Turn" restriction? I can perhaps understand not wanting to have cyclists sitting in the middle of the right lane waiting to turn right across traffic but a hook turn has zero impact on traffic flows.

Thoughts? Can cyclists do a hook turn legally where a right turn ban exists for all traffic?
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by BNA » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:35 pm

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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby human909 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:35 pm

In Victoria a hook turn by bicycles is expressly allowed unless there is a "no hook turn by bicycles sign". Now that still doesn't completely answer the question if there is a "no right turn". I would argue that you are not turn right, you are merely continuing straight, leaving the traffic flow and then continuing straight. :wink: But seriously what does it matter? Who is going to pull you up on it?

As it happens I performed this maneuver on Saturday at a "NO RIGHT TURN". Right in front of a cop car, and then positioning myself in the middle of the left hand land holding up the cop car when the lights went green. :mrgreen: If there ever was a time that the police would pull me up then that would have been it. However I was confident enough in my knowledge and application of the law to perform the maneuver. The cop car overtook me safely and sensibly by changing lanes as there wasn't really any other option.

(No it wasn't meant to be provocative, or anything else. It was simply the safest, most sensible and also legal way to deal with that intersection.)
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby wellington_street » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:53 am

human909 wrote: But seriously what does it matter? Who is going to pull you up on it?


I would prefer to know whether it is legal or illegal.

Just doing it anyway makes me no better than the ignorant morons we complain about on here every day who think cyclists aren't allowed to ride in the lane etc.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby Cowcorner » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:31 am

human909 wrote:In Victoria a hook turn by bicycles is expressly allowed unless there is a "no hook turn by bicycles sign".


Just as a matter of interest, has anyone actually seen one of those "no hook turn" signs? Can't say I've ever seen one.

I'm a big fan of hook turns and there's quite a few intersections where I'll routinely perform it (eg, Lonsdale/Exhibition corner during peak hour can be a nightmare otherwise). I'd say that technically it's still a right hand turn but, given that it's clearing the intersection as much as possible, you'd have to be really stiff to get pinged for it. I'm no lawyer though and the cynic in me suggests that it may depend on whether the police person who witnesses it has met their quota for the month yet.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby RonK » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:19 pm

I don't know the rule in WA, but in QLD hook turns are permitted unless there is signage explicitly banning hook turns. I would have no hesitation to perform a hook turn when faced with a no right turn sign.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby InTheWoods » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:37 pm

The no right turn means don't turn right.

A hook turn is not turning right, it is a hook turn, so the sign wouldn't apply. If you weren't allowed to do it there would be a "no hook turn" sign as well as the "no right turn" sign.

Edit: But WA goes it alone on a lot of rules
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby find_bruce » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:49 pm

As always, you need to start with the exact text of the rules, in the case of WA, the Road Traffic Code 2000. The relevant rules are
72 . No left turn and no right turn signs wrote:(2) If there is a “no right turn” sign at an intersection, or another place on a road, a driver shall not turn right and, unless there is a “U turn permitted” sign, shall not make a U turn at the intersection or place.

28 . Optional hook turn by bicycle rider wrote:
  1. The rider of a bicycle turning right at an intersection without a “no hook turn by bicycles” sign, may turn right at the intersection by making a right turn or a hook turn.
    No hook turn by bicycles sign
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  2. A rider of a bicycle shall not make a hook turn under this regulation unless it is made in accordance with subregulations (3) and (4).

Because rule 28 distinguishes "right turn" from "hook turn" there is a good argument that you can do a hook turn unless the above sign is present. What is likely to be said against that is that a hook turn is a way of turning right & therefore prohibited.

Which is right ? I know what I think, but it will only ever be determined by a magistrate or judge ? Think about it for yourself and make your own decision & live with the consequences. If you are particularly keen, get legal advice rather than following the opinions of random people on the internet.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby wellington_street » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:04 pm

^ But you are my favourite bunch of randoms on the internet :lol:
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:24 pm

wellington_street wrote:I would prefer to know whether it is legal or illegal.

Just doing it anyway makes me no better than the ignorant morons we complain about on here every day who think cyclists aren't allowed to ride in the lane etc.

Chances are that it is technically neither because the situation was not considered at the drafting or legislative stage.

For mine, if an activity is not specifically banned it is permitted.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby queequeg » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:42 pm

Same rule here in NSW, you can hook turn on a bicycle unless there is a sign saying otherwise.

A hook turn is not a right hand turn. You cross the intersection with the flow of traffic going straight across. You are turning across any lanes of traffic after using the hook turn to position yourself in either the bicycle storage box, or in the front of the waiting traffic.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby find_bruce » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:57 pm

wellington_street wrote:^ But you are my favourite bunch of randoms on the internet :lol:

Sure, we love you like a brother too. I'm just imagining the reaction of Constable Plod when you say but Johnny on BNA said it was OK :D

BTW what is the fine if you get it wrong ? $100 IIRC
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:26 pm

find_bruce wrote:What is likely to be said against that is that a hook turn is a way of turning right & therefore prohibited.

Making a left turn, followed by a U-turn and then straight through, will also be a way of turning right - and often quite legal. However I don't think anyone would construe it as a right turn.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby Aushiker » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:40 pm

find_bruce wrote:Which is right ? I know what I think, but it will only ever be determined by a magistrate or judge ? Think about it for yourself and make your own decision & live with the consequences. If you are particularly keen, get legal advice rather than following the opinions of random people on the internet.


I am on a slow modem at the moment due a moron managing to roll their car on Hampton Road taking out the power so haven't checked the regulations but IIRC a cyclist is a driver hence I would assume regulation 72 applies. The question then is a a hook turn a right turn and according to regulation 28 it would appear it is, therefore I would think the answer is no.

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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:04 pm

Aushiker wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Which is right ? I know what I think, but it will only ever be determined by a magistrate or judge ? Think about it for yourself and make your own decision & live with the consequences. If you are particularly keen, get legal advice rather than following the opinions of random people on the internet.


I am on a slow modem at the moment due a moron managing to roll their car on Hampton Road taking out the power so haven't checked the regulations but IIRC a cyclist is a driver hence I would assume regulation 72 applies. The question then is a a hook turn a right turn and according to regulation 28 it would appear it is, therefore I would think the answer is no.

Andrew


I would disagree with your interpretation - Reg 72 is express permission to do it unless the 'No Hook Turns by Bicycles' sign is there. There is no other qualifier, e.g. "subject to Rule 28".
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby Aushiker » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:56 pm

wellington_street wrote:I would disagree with your interpretation - Reg 72 is express permission to do it unless the 'No Hook Turns by Bicycles' sign is there. There is no other qualifier, e.g. "subject to Rule 28".


No worries but you would still breach regulation 28 ... your same logic applies ... There is no exemption for rule 72.

My point is and still is that right turns are not allowed; a hook turn is right turn, turning right is not allowed at that intersection. All regulation 72 is allows hook turns unless there is a no hook turn sign; it does not allow you break other rules.

Anyway that is my take. You do whatever you think is right.

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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:37 pm

I'd think any judge on such a case may well take a look at the intent behind the rule banning right turns. Generally this is to prevent stopped right turn vehicles choking up the centre of an intersection which may be very busy and/or dangerous. The hook turn, excecuted correctly by a cyclist, does not present any significant addition to the congestion - the cyclist positions themself out of the traffic flow in front of waiting stopped traffic.

Thus the intent of Rule 28 (a smooth flowing intersection) is not compromised.
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Re: No Right Turns & Hook Turns for Cyclists

Postby pacra » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:46 pm

I asked a barrister who does a fair amount of traffic cases. In his opinion and to the best of his knowledge, issuing an infringement against a cyclist doing a hook turn at a no right turn was considered by senior Vic police to be unenforcible in a court due to the ambiguity of the regulations.
I do them several times each week on no right turn intersections and have once or twice had a cop car at the red light watch me do the turn. They just drove on past me when they got their green without even a glance my way.
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