Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

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Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby nezumi » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:47 am

Nice little artice in The Age relating to a video of Ken Lay that has gone up on Youtube, addressing the right of cyclists to be on the road:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/ken-l ... 33itx.html
Last edited by nezumi on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by BNA » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:41 am

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Re: Keny Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby Cowcorner » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:41 am

No problems with the article but why , why, why do they have to insist on opening the Comments section? :roll:
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Re: Keny Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:15 pm

Haha. Top comment says: "This should be interesting. I'm going to get the popcorn."

Yep. Me too.

It is great to see this level of support from the Commish.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby malnar » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:35 pm

The other day I heard a shockingly ignorant discussion about cyclists on the radio (my fault, it was 3AW). However there was one caller who made a point that I hadn't considered before. She said that cyclists can make a TAC claim (in Vic) if they are in a collision with a registered vehicle. This is true & by her tone she clearly thought it was an unjust anomaly.

From a road rules perspective, bicycles are vehicles. Bicycle riders are (as far as I know) the only vehicle operators who don't have to pay 3rd party insurance & can still make a TAC claim if they are injured in a collision on the public roads, as long as the collision is with a registered vehicle (& thereby the 3rd party insurance premium has been paid).

I guess the point is, anyone who is injured in a collision on the public roads can make a TAC claim as long as at least one of the vehicles is registered.

Does the fact that bicycles are vehicles make you think that we're getting something for nothing?
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:56 pm

malnar wrote:Bicycle riders are (as far as I know) the only vehicle operators who don't have to pay 3rd party insurance & can still make a TAC claim if they are injured in a collision on the public roads, as long as the collision is with a registered vehicle (& thereby the 3rd party insurance premium has been paid).

As logical as that may sound, it is a somewhat counter-intuitive argument, since a vulnerable road user would need to be injured in order to "benefit."

Yes, a bicycle is a vehicle. It is unpowered, uncovered and very difficult to use for ram-raids, but it is a vehicle none-the-less.
malnar wrote:Does the fact that bicycles are vehicles make you think that we're getting something for nothing?

No, in fact we're saving the government a lot of money by not driving our cars. For me, it's somewhere in the order of $250 per week:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/infrastructure/pab/urbanpolicy/active_travel/index.aspx

If motorists had to pay the true cost of driving, most of them wouldn't drive to work.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:00 pm

rkelsen wrote:
If motorists had to pay the true cost of driving, most of them wouldn't drive to work.


A good example of that in the discussion in this thread viewtopic.php?f=12&t=73052 .

If my maths is correct, rego that actually paid for the true costs would be about $10,000 a year.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:03 pm

malnar wrote:From a road rules perspective, bicycles are vehicles. Bicycle riders are (as far as I know) the only vehicle operators who don't have to pay 3rd party insurance & can still make a TAC claim if they are injured in a collision on the public roads, as long as the collision is with a registered vehicle (& thereby the 3rd party insurance premium has been paid).
..
Does the fact that bicycles are vehicles make you think that we're getting something for nothing?

that's what 3rd party insurance is - for 3rd parties.

the reason cars have 3rd party insurance is that they cause the injuries. cyclists generally don't (there are exceptions, but that is all they are).

it's amazing that motorists believe paying this insurance gives them a higher status - rather, it reflects their tenuous grasp on access to the roads - by condition only.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby gabrielle260 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:14 pm

But so can a pedestrian - a pedestrian hit by a registered vehicle can (and do) make a TAC claim!
So we as cyclists have the same rights in this regard as pedestrians....
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby malnar » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:21 pm

gabrielle260 wrote:But so can a pedestrian - a pedestrian hit by a registered vehicle can (and do) make a TAC claim!
So we as cyclists have the same rights in this regard as pedestrians....


Yes but a cyclist is operating a vehicle. That's the distinction I was making.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:16 pm

gabrielle260 wrote:But so can a pedestrian - a pedestrian hit by a registered vehicle can (and do) make a TAC claim!
So we as cyclists have the same rights in this regard as pedestrians....

Passengers in motor vehicles involved who suffer injury can as well. Many of them will not be paying any TAC charges.

The 'vehicle' definition relates to the TAC cover for the owner of the vehicle from 3rd party claims. If a registered vehicle is involved, cover is extended to all injured parties on a "no fault" basis. The cyclist is an injured party, ergo they will be covered. In the fairly unlikely event that a cyclist caused the injury of another road-user (not a registered vehicle occupant), like a pedestrian or another cyclist, then they will not be covered as they do not have cover for 3rd parties. It will all go to a court case in all likelihood.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:39 pm

malnar wrote:
gabrielle260 wrote:But so can a pedestrian - a pedestrian hit by a registered vehicle can (and do) make a TAC claim!
So we as cyclists have the same rights in this regard as pedestrians....


Yes but a cyclist is operating a vehicle. That's the distinction I was making.

Not a motorised one.

Cyclists are classified as vulnerable road users, in the same basket as pedestrians for the purposes of TAC insurance.

Having them pay for TAC insurance makes as much sense as having pedestrians pay it. This is where your argument falls down. TAC insurance does not cover damage to property.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby Ross » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:09 pm

Does a kid riding a scooter need to pay rego? What about someone using one of those mobility scooters? What about a pram? A wheelchair? What about a skateboarder or roller blader?
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby macca33 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:54 pm

From:- http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/about-the-tac ... what-we-do


'The TAC covers transport accidents directly caused by the driving of a car, motorcycle, bus, train or tram. The TAC can provide support services for people injured in a transport accident as a driver, passenger, pedestrian, motorcyclist, or in some cases, a cyclist.

The TAC is a "no-fault" scheme. This means that medical benefits will be paid to an injured person - regardless of who caused the accident.'
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:42 pm

Ross wrote:Does a kid riding a scooter need to pay rego? What about someone using one of those mobility scooters? What about a pram? A wheelchair? What about a skateboarder or roller blader?


Well as skateboards, scooters and suchlike are "wheeled recreational devices" and are banned from the road, I would say no.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:45 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
Ross wrote:Does a kid riding a scooter need to pay rego? What about someone using one of those mobility scooters? What about a pram? A wheelchair? What about a skateboarder or roller blader?


Well as skateboards, scooters and suchlike are "wheeled recreational devices" and are banned from the road, I would say no.

In simple terms in WA I can ride on most local roads in daytme on my "wheeled recreational device". WRD's include unicycles and skateboards but not scooters.

And as states are mostly consistent in road rules, prolly allowed on roads in many/most other jurisdictions too. (Though in SA they deviate from WA to the extent that I have to wear a helmet over there.)

If anyone does know for a fact that WRDs are disallowed on local roads in other states I would be interested to know. Send me a PM so as not to hijack this thread.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:01 pm

In Victoria wheeled recreational devices includes skateboards, rollerblades, rollerskates, scooters that are not vehicles, and similar wheeled devices. The unicycle seems to be in a bit of limbo-land as they are not classed as a bicycle, nor a WRD :? .

WRDs may be used on roads, but not on any road at night; and not on roads with a dividing line or median strip, not on roads with speed limits greater than 50kmh, nor on one-way roads with more than one lane (basically confined to minor residential streets only).
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby rkelsen » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:44 pm

macca33 wrote:From:- http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/about-the-tac ... what-we-do


'The TAC covers transport accidents directly caused by the driving of a car, motorcycle, bus, train or tram. The TAC can provide support services for people injured in a transport accident as a driver, passenger, pedestrian, motorcyclist, or in some cases, a cyclist.

The TAC is a "no-fault" scheme. This means that medical benefits will be paid to an injured person - regardless of who caused the accident.'

I'm confused. This bit makes me think that cyclists don't automatically receive TAC benefits:

"or in some cases, a cyclist."

This would invalidate the entire argument above.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:53 pm

I think that rider may be in the statement because in some cases a cyclist is not covered if they hit a parked car.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:18 pm

il padrone wrote:WRDs may be used on roads, but not on any road at night; and not on roads with a dividing line or median strip, not on roads with speed limits greater than 50kmh, nor on one-way roads with more than one lane (basically confined to minor residential streets only).


Thanks for that. What you have detailed is EXACTLY the same as in Perth. Outside of Queensland most states do seem to do their best to cut out the complications of federation.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby exadios » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:52 pm

malnar wrote:The other day I heard a shockingly ignorant discussion about cyclists on the radio (my fault, it was 3AW). However there was one caller who made a point that I hadn't considered before. She said that cyclists can make a TAC claim (in Vic) if they are in a collision with a registered vehicle. This is true & by her tone she clearly thought it was an unjust anomaly.

From a road rules perspective, bicycles are vehicles. Bicycle riders are (as far as I know) the only vehicle operators who don't have to pay 3rd party insurance & can still make a TAC claim if they are injured in a collision on the public roads, as long as the collision is with a registered vehicle (& thereby the 3rd party insurance premium has been paid).

I guess the point is, anyone who is injured in a collision on the public roads can make a TAC claim as long as at least one of the vehicles is registered.

Does the fact that bicycles are vehicles make you think that we're getting something for nothing?


I am guessing that making a 'TAC' claim has nothing to do with insurance at all. It is a damages claim like any other. The requirement that motor vechicle carry third party insurance is to lubricate the system (and to stop them losing their houses!).
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:55 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Thanks for that. What you have detailed is EXACTLY the same as in Perth. Outside of Queensland most states do seem to do their best to cut out the complications of federation.

So that guy from Melbourne who recently unicycled around Australia, raising funds for breast cancer research, was basically breaking the law almost the whole way :P Wonder how many times the cops pulled him over ??
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:36 pm

il padrone wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:Thanks for that. What you have detailed is EXACTLY the same as in Perth. Outside of Queensland most states do seem to do their best to cut out the complications of federation.

So that guy from Melbourne who recently unicycled around Australia, raising funds for breast cancer research, was basically breaking the law almost the whole way :P Wonder how many times the cops pulled him over ??

Be assured, he would have sorted out exemptions in advance. The riding is only about half of the achievement. Much of an epic like that is about support people on and off the road, garnering sponsors and a heap of planning and organisation.

I do recall (YouTube?) that he did have to provide documentation to one cop that challenged him.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby Duck! » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:35 pm

rkelsen wrote:
macca33 wrote:From:- http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/about-the-tac ... what-we-do


'The TAC covers transport accidents directly caused by the driving of a car, motorcycle, bus, train or tram. The TAC can provide support services for people injured in a transport accident as a driver, passenger, pedestrian, motorcyclist, or in some cases, a cyclist.

The TAC is a "no-fault" scheme. This means that medical benefits will be paid to an injured person - regardless of who caused the accident.'

I'm confused. This bit makes me think that cyclists don't automatically receive TAC benefits:

"or in some cases, a cyclist."

This would invalidate the entire argument above.

I believe the wording is along the lines of cyclists only receive TAC benefits if they're involved in an accident with a vehicle engaged in the act of driving. So a cyclist having a stack all of their own accord, or hitting a parked car, other cyclist or pedestrian = no cover. Being doored may be a very grey area, which I would l think clarification on would be greatly welcome - I certainly don't know how that scenario stands in this instance. But if a cyclist is injured by a car/motorbike/truck etc, then TAC will step in.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby rkelsen » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:22 pm

Duck! wrote:I believe the wording is along the lines of cyclists only receive TAC benefits if they're involved in an accident with a vehicle engaged in the act of driving. So a cyclist having a stack all of their own accord, or hitting a parked car, other cyclist or pedestrian = no cover. ... But if a cyclist is injured by a car/motorbike/truck etc, then TAC will step in.

This is perfectly reasonable, and to my mind, completely invalidates the "freeloader" argument. The insurance of the person at fault pays. It has nothing at all to do with the status of the person who suffered the damage.
Duck! wrote:Being doored may be a very grey area, which I would l think clarification on would be greatly welcome - I certainly don't know how that scenario stands in this instance.

In Vic, it is illegal to open a door into traffic without ensuring that it is safe to do so first. That might sway the judge a bit.
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Re: Ken Lay (Victoria's Top Cop) supports cyclists

Postby Duck! » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:03 pm

rkelsen wrote:
Duck! wrote:Being doored may be a very grey area, which I would l think clarification on would be greatly welcome - I certainly don't know how that scenario stands in this instance.

In Vic, it is illegal to open a door into traffic without ensuring that it is safe to do so first. That might sway the judge a bit.

The bit about opening a door into traffic being illegal is pretty clear, and I wasn't questioning that - at the very least there is definitely some personal liability on the part of the door-opener. As a "no fault" system, it's not up to TAC to decide if any traffic offences determine payment of benefits, nor does the outcome of any investigation alter the entitlement.

What I'm unsure of is how the TAC views it - is it a parked car? If it is, then the cyclist does not receive cover. But the driver (usually, but passengers can open doors too) is a party to the incident, so what then? Opening doors usually isn't considered in the act of driving. That's the bit that needs clarification.
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