Minimum Safe Passing Distance Fiasco

[Mysta]

Safe Cycling Australia require your help:


Important announcement:

Together with Maurice Blackburn lawyers, SCA are in the process of collecting data from cyclists who have made complaints to police supported by video evidence, and either been turned away, received little or no feedback & any infringement notices issued regarding their cases.

SCA are looking to compile information that will enable us in asking every state government and police commissioner in this country what it is that they are doing to protect the rights of cyclists on our roads. If not enough, why not?

We cannot stress that this data collection is of the utmost importance. Please share with anyone you may know who can assist.

If you could either contact Dave or Graham via our wall or email addresses with video link, infringement details & outcomes it would be highly appreciated.

Please include:

Video link:
Location of incident:
Time & date of incident:
Was a case number issued:
Date of report:
Location of Police Station complaint lodged:

We shall communicate with you for further information as we progress.

safecyclingaus@gmail.com
grahampgeorge@gmail.com

Regards,
Graham George

[human909]

Top stuff!

[Summernight]

Will try and remember to do so in the next few days.

[thecaptn]

You guys are doing a fantastic job, I can't help with your campaign but I can make a donation.

Thanks for all the hard work,
Pete

Edit: I can't seem to get the donate thingy to work...

[fat and old]

I thought SCA had taken their bat and ball elsewhere?

[diggler]

I find this obsession with video evidence to be quite ridiculous. It seems to be trying to find the most overengineered solution to a simple problem.

I have previously posted this picture of a retractable horizontal flag that I use. I have set it at 50cm but I can make it longer. It is a simple and cheap way to keep vehicles at a distance. Since using it, neither the flag or I have been hit.

Instead, people prefer to have a video camera and then try to work out passing distances using computer generated lines.

If the goal is to keep some safe distance, the horizontal flag gives more distance. It's not rocket science. I get the impression that instead of of taking a practical approach to safety, cyclists would rather have their high tech toys which are much less effective.

Retractable flag. Yes I know it is a bit dodgy, but it was using off the shelf parts.

[URL=http://s495.photobucket.com/user/d ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[URL=http://s495.photobucket.com/user/d ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[outnabike]

I am finding the police are having a problem in Vic at least with proof of closeness etc from my camera. I have forwarded many of the videos that were rejected by the Vic police to SCA.
It is a tough job to put evidence to courts I know, and a case in Qld was won due to road measurements also being considered in the case of a large truck and the cyclists available room. Still we have to start somewhere and the SCA is doing its best.
I will never knock back the technology , but even with a one metre law in place you still have to prove the closeness some how.
Calibrations seemed to be the way to go but my dealings with the Vic police are that they would be inadvisable in court, and the rider would have the onus of proof to substantiate the grid and camera testing etc etc.
That said, noticeable close passes are certainly Scary to watch.
I am also finding that the fact that even though a life threatening (To the cyclist) bit of video is presented, the rider is quickly reprimanded for any slight indiscretion with in the video. such as allegedly riding on a traffic island path way.
This despite my having been told to ride on a path for my safety by 5 police men, and that of the five they all without exception said this they would not book a rider for this, at times, safety first action.
Different story to ride down a busy shopping centre footpath though in all cases.

I am finding the police that actually do the work in road safety have a tougher job than it appears to us as riders. The also get it wrong,(from a cyclists perspective) and so do we as riders, ( from a police perspective). I am happy to work with SCA to learn a better way to prove the unsafe driving rather than knocking cameras.
Maybe a camera on the outside edge of the handle bars would give a better view, I don't know. Problem is that in that position, calibration would be useless.

Not knocking you Diggler but I reckon with a flag out and a scrape along a car, more problems would appear in the form of proof and wobbling into cars etc.

I have taken to following cyclist at a distance to see how close some drivers get to them with my dash cam. It seems to be the only way to get the close pass on video, with the road way accurately depicted. But who has the time to do all this?

[yugyug]

I think it's important that camera calibration is legally accepted. If I was a manufacturer of something like the Fly6 I would offer a technical solution to calibration and then push and provide support for a high profile higher court win to set a precedent in Queensland before the 1m trial ends.

[diggler]

I am finding the police are having a problem in Vic at least with proof of closeness etc from my camera. I have forwarded many of the videos that were rejected by the Vic police to SCA.
It is a tough job to put evidence to courts I know, and a case in Qld was won due to road measurements also being considered in the case of a large truck and the cyclists available room. Still we have to start somewhere and the SCA is doing its best.
I will never knock back the technology , but even with a one metre law in place you still have to prove the closeness some how.
Calibrations seemed to be the way to go but my dealings with the Vic police are that they would be inadvisable in court, and the rider would have the onus of proof to substantiate the grid and camera testing etc etc.
That said, noticeable close passes are certainly Scary to watch.
I am also finding that the fact that even though a life threatening (To the cyclist) bit of video is presented, the rider is quickly reprimanded for any slight indiscretion with in the video. such as allegedly riding on a traffic island path way.
This despite my having been told to ride on a path for my safety by 5 police men, and that of the five they all without exception said this they would not book a rider for this, at times, safety first action.
Different story to ride down a busy shopping centre footpath though in all cases.

I am finding the police that actually do the work in road safety have a tougher job than it appears to us as riders. The also get it wrong,(from a cyclists perspective) and so do we as riders, ( from a police perspective). I am happy to work with SCA to learn a better way to prove the unsafe driving rather than knocking cameras.
Maybe a camera on the outside edge of the handle bars would give a better view, I don't know. Problem is that in that position, calibration would be useless.

Not knocking you Diggler but I reckon with a flag out and a scrape along a car, more problems would appear in the form of proof and wobbling into cars etc.

I have taken to following cyclist at a distance to see how close some drivers get to them with my dash cam. It seems to be the only way to get the close pass on video, with the road way accurately depicted. But who has the time to do all this?

If the flag is extended by 1m or less and the car hits it, then unambiguously it is within 1m. Case closed. No calibration required.

If a car tries to pass you and scrapes the flag, whose fault is that? The onus is on the vehicle doing the passing not to hit the other vehicle. Imagine if I drove a car and scraped another car while overtaking it, then I blamed it on the car I overtook. That would be unbelievable. The only exception is if the car being passed was swerving like a drunken sailor.

[John Lewis]

The flag idea is tempting. However it may not be legal.
In Western Australia I believe there is a maximum width for a bike
and anything attached. From memory it is about 700mm.

John

[bychosis]

I think it's important that camera calibration is legally accepted. If I was a manufacturer of something like the Fly6 I would offer a technical solution to calibration and then push and provide support for a high profile higher court win to set a precedent in Queensland before the 1m trial ends.

Surely the accuracy of a measured garage/driveway shot could be accurate enough to determine if a car is within a percentage of the allowed passing space. A technical solution could be difficult given the variety of bikes and mounting locations. Certainly attempting to get a calibration through the court process is a good idea, all the better if it is a 'home calibrated' setup.

[bychosis]

The flag idea is tempting. However it may not be legal.
In Western Australia I believe there is a maximum width for a bike
and anything attached. From memory it is about 700mm.

John

So modern MTB bars aren't legal? I think mine are about 720mm.

[tallywhacker]

just use a camera and a proximity sensor

[outnabike]

[
If the flag is extended by 1m or less and the car hits it, then unambiguously it is within 1m. Case closed. No calibration required.

If a car tries to pass you and scrapes the flag, whose fault is that? The onus is on the vehicle doing the passing not to hit the other vehicle. Imagine if I drove a car and scraped another car while overtaking it, then I blamed it on the car I overtook. That would be unbelievable. The only exception is if the car being passed was swerving like a drunken sailor.

I get you mate but not that you think it is ok to extend the bike width legally.

Consider the accepted bike width in most states. This is WA.
Western Australian Consolidated Regulations

Handle bar
"The handle bar of a bicycle must extend not less than 180 mm nor more than 330 mm on each side of the centre of the bicycle and the height of the uppermost point of the handle bar must not exceed the height of the uppermost part of the seat by more than 300 mm.
[Regulation 8 amended in Gazette 30 Aug 2011 p. 3516.] "

Irrespective of the state, a vehicle may carry a flagged over hang of one metre from the back, but certainly not from the side. ( with out going into the wide load provisions)

I would not like the thought of a blue in the centre of the road and telling a driver it is their fault is all I am saying.

[diggler]

[
If the flag is extended by 1m or less and the car hits it, then unambiguously it is within 1m. Case closed. No calibration required.

If a car tries to pass you and scrapes the flag, whose fault is that? The onus is on the vehicle doing the passing not to hit the other vehicle. Imagine if I drove a car and scraped another car while overtaking it, then I blamed it on the car I overtook. That would be unbelievable. The only exception is if the car being passed was swerving like a drunken sailor.

I get you mate but not that you think it is ok to extend the bike width legally.

Consider the accepted bike width in most states. This is WA.
Western Australian Consolidated Regulations

Handle bar
"The handle bar of a bicycle must extend not less than 180 mm nor more than 330 mm on each side of the centre of the bicycle and the height of the uppermost point of the handle bar must not exceed the height of the uppermost part of the seat by more than 300 mm.
[Regulation 8 amended in Gazette 30 Aug 2011 p. 3516.] "

Irrespective of the state, a vehicle may carry a flagged over hang of one metre from the back, but certainly not from the side. ( with out going into the wide load provisions)

I would not like the thought of a blue in the centre of the road and telling a driver it is their fault is all I am saying.

I've had a look at the road rules and I can't find anything that refers to the width of a bicycle in NSW. I have emailed contactus@bicycleinfo.nsw.gov.au to see if they can enlighten me. The only thing I can find is that the maximum width of a vehicle is 2.5m.

Let us assume that the flag extends beyond the legal width of a bicycle. Are you saying that if an overtaking vehicle hits me (assuming I am not weaving like a drunken sailor) then I am in the wrong? That is certainly news to me. As far as I can tell,it is always the responsibility of the vehicle following, not to hit the vehicle in front. As far as I can tell, you can park your car on the Sydney Harbour Bridge and get fined for obstructing traffic, but I don't think that gives anybody else the right to ram my car with impunity.

[diggler]

just use a camera and a proximity sensor

This thread is getting madder by the minute. You need a sensor to tell you that you are close to a car door? Is Stevie Wonder piloting your tandem? If the problem is the cars on your right, then you want to complain that a vehicle entered your invisible 1m zone instead of having a flag which everybody can see.

I am not anti technology. I welcome the day when we have driverless cars. I just question this belief that a gadget, or God help us, a new App, is the solution to all our problems.

[fat and old]

just use a camera and a proximity sensor

This thread is getting madder by the minute.

What? As opposed to the idea of taping a fishing rod with a rope hook attached to the end of it to my bike....as a Safety appliance? No offense Digs, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I do that I

[diggler]

just use a camera and a proximity sensor

This thread is getting madder by the minute.

What? As opposed to the idea of taping a fishing rod with a rope hook attached to the end of it to my bike....as a Safety appliance? No offense Digs, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I do that I

If you don't want a horizontal safety flag, that is fine. That is your prerogative.

Is a proximity sensor to see that you are close to a car door something you want to put on your bike instead?

Or do you think having a video camera with computer generated distance lines is the answer?

By the way, how many successful prosecutions have there been based on video evidence and computer generated distance lines. My guess is none.

And how many times have vehicles been uncomfortably close to me with my flag out. None.

I'm not telling you to put a horizontal flag on your bike, I'm just wondering do you really think the video camera and the sensor will be helpful?

Even if there was a successful prosecution based on the video, that is only helpful to send a message to drivers in the future. The flag immediately keeps vehicles away (not that I am advocating in any way that you put a flag on your bike, heaven forbid).

[fat and old]

I haven't got anything on my bike (I was given a go-pro by my son but haven't fitted it ever). I don't need nor want anything to "let me know" where the car is. I just want them to give me space without any special effort from me. Just like they give each other

[bychosis]

I haven't got anything on my bike (I was given a go-pro by my son but haven't fitted it ever). I don't need nor want anything to "let me know" where the car is. I just want them to give me space without any special effort from me. Just like they give each other

Unfortunately cyclists are a different species for most drivers. Most will give sufficient space, some won't see you, and others will punishment pass for merely being where you are allowed to be.

[John Lewis]

The flag idea is tempting. However it may not be legal.
In Western Australia I believe there is a maximum width for a bike
and anything attached. From memory it is about 700mm.

John

So modern MTB bars aren't legal? I think mine are about 720mm.

So it would seem according to this if you are in WA. Seems I was generous quoting 700mm. Looks like 660 is max legal.

ROAD TRAFFIC (BICYCLES) REGULATIONS 2002 - REG 8
8 . Handle bar

The handle bar of a bicycle must extend not less than 180 mm nor more than 330 mm on each side of the centre of the bicycle and the height of the uppermost point of the handle bar must not exceed the height of the uppermost part of the seat by more than 300 mm.

[human909]

I agree with diggler. If the problem you are trying to solve is having cars pass too close to you then the flag solution is almost certainly the best. (An automatic rifle strapped to your back might be good too. )

However cameras do offer other purposes and also give far less wind resistance.

I use none of the above.

[diggler]

I agree with diggler. If the problem you are trying to solve is having cars pass too close to you then the flag solution is almost certainly the best. (An automatic rifle strapped to your back might be good too. )

However cameras do offer other purposes and also give far less wind resistance.

I use none of the above.

Omigod! Somebody has agreed with me about something on this website! I want to marry you and have 1000 babies with you.

[Mysta]

The new Fly12 has proximity lines built in FYI.

[Xplora]

The new Fly12 has proximity lines built in FYI.

What about the Fly6? I've been feeling a bit more motivated since the FLy12 has a light, less stuff to hog up my bars!