Onus of Safety

[il padrone]

H909, if you aren't pushing yourself to the point where your mind is drifting, you aren't trying nearly hard enough. Harden up. If you ain't bonkin', you ain't ridin'

Yet another example of how the roadie mindset has absolutely nothing to do with cycling for transport, for most folks

[Xplora]

lol I've been back on the commute around the suburb recently, headcheck is definitely the only real way of addressing the problem... but H909 needs a kick occasionally to wake him up

which makes for a stunningly interesting situation - the headcheck is actually quite hard for a bike if you wear glasses, because the focus is missed. Mirrors are going to help but I've been mirror free for a long time now. Too much mucking around. Headchecks are great in cars, because any slight mistakes by the driver cause everyone to get out of the way - a close shaving driver near a bike attempting a headcheck is a guaranteed prang. Once again - the car driver is the only one truly in control of the situation. All the radars and mirrors and headchecks ignore the fact that riders can't magically equalise the damage to a car like another car.

[il padrone]

lol I've been back on the commute around the suburb recently, headcheck is definitely the only real way of addressing the problem... but H909 needs a kick occasionally to wake him up

which makes for a stunningly interesting situation - the headcheck is actually quite hard for a bike if you wear glasses, because the focus is missed. Mirrors are going to help but I've been mirror free for a long time now.

Headcheck? What's that?

I am barely ever finding the need for those. Mirror-operator for over 30 years now, and it is by far easier to scan a good mirror carefully, and in advance of road manoeuvres, than to take one's eyes completely off the road ahead and twist an awkward, destabilising headcheck. And, despite a little neck stiffness on the right-side, I do know how to do good headchecks - dropping the arm and grasping the back of the saddle. It's just that the mirror is so much easier, allows ongoing monitoring, and with practice can be scanned for a wider field of view. I get to ride a straight and stable course at the same time.

[tgdavies]

+1 for a mirror -- yes it usually gets bumped when I take the bike out the back gate, so it needs a couple of tweaks as I go down my first stretch of road, but even nasty road bumps don't shift it after that. I'll still 'head check' my blind spot at the last minute, but the mirror does most of the work. Very useful on shared paths too.

[human909]

H909, if you aren't pushing yourself to the point where your mind is drifting, you aren't trying nearly hard enough. Harden up. If you ain't bonkin', you ain't ridin'

I'll take that comment with the grin that was included and I believe Xplora intended.

But I support il padrones comments and I'll add my own... IF you are pushing deliberately yourself until you bonk on the public roads then you are doing yourself and the public a disservice (an understatement). This applies just as much to fatigued drivers as it does to fatigued cyclists.

But yeah like many here I do push myself. But if I'm in a less than 'safe' environment then I will hold something back to ensure I am not so tired that I make such mistakes. Heidelberg Road and beyond has long been a riding route for me and I regularly ride FAST and hard f I ride it. But I always ensure that catch my breath and recharge my tank a little before riding up the dangerous Hoddle St overpass. Cyclists have died there at the hands of motorists and I presume many more injured. I don't want to be tired and out of breath as I approach and cross that point.

Likewise mountain biking. I'll do my best to keep up with my fitter partners going uphill. Though I'll make sure I get my breathe and bring my head back into the game before I head down and tackle some technical trail.

headchecks are great in cars, because any slight mistakes by the driver cause everyone to get out of the way - a close shaving driver near a bike attempting a headcheck is a guaranteed prang. Once again - the car driver is the only one truly in control of the situation. All the radars and mirrors and headchecks ignore the fact that riders can't magically equalise the damage to a car like another car.

I disagree. With full and proper situation awareness I can maintain control of the situation. I am on a bike, I am agile and I can react. Though I certainly admit that without a mirror I don't always maintain full 360degree awareness. Cruising down canning street is different from taking on Hoddle Street or Flinders Street. In the latter cases I claim the lane, sit upright on my roadie and have my head on a constant swivel.

(Besides motorists are like Magpies. Most won't swoop if they know you are watching. I rarely get issues when they know I'm watching them.)

[human909]

Oh and one more thing. I use knowledge of what is happening behind me to help predict what will happen IN FRONT of me. If there is no traffic behind me then it will make a right hook or a failure to give way from a side street more likely. I'll change my behaviour accordingly. aka; Move wide and be (more) ready to brake.

This has saved me on several occasions. One time it was evidently so because my riding partner who I was initially wheel sucking and didn't hear my calls of caution, was hit by the car.

[g-boaf]

Rubbish on that talk that motorists won't act if you are watching. They don't care.

Mirrors, cameras or not, they are in 1.5t of metal. They don't care about 65kg of bike and rider.

Cars versus cars is more equal.

[human909]

Rubbish on that talk that motorists won't act if you are watching. They don't care.

Mirrors, cameras or not, they are in 1.5t of metal. They don't care about 65kg of bike and rider.

Cars versus cars is more equal.

Way to go tarring everyone who drives a car with a great big brush. Also, great work dismissing one person's qualified observation with an outright categorical assertion that is factually false.

Funny calling the talk "rubbish" and then dishing it out so readily.

[g-boaf]

I've had enough deliberate bad experiences with car drivers that no mirrors or cameras were going to stop. I don't trust any drivers when I'm on the bike.

If you want to defend motorists, then so be it. But I won't. They've got a great big metal cage around them, that is more than enough. My Sunday experience changed my attitude towards drivers. I nearly got deliberately wiped out at 75km/h with full throttle acceleration by a car driver (his speed, not mine).

[Xplora]

^^^ and that's the truth of it. 99 good drivers don't put you in hospital. 1 undiagnosed sociopath does.

[human909]

There is nobody here suggesting that dangerous motorists don't exist. We all recognise that. But that is the whole point of mirrors or head checking. Is to SEE the danger and then take action to ensure your own safety.

[il padrone]

Rubbish on that talk that motorists won't act if you are watching. They don't care.

Mirrors, cameras or not, they are in 1.5t of metal. They don't care about 65kg of bike and rider.

Cars versus cars is more equal.

This is a general fallacy. It seems you have never practiced "the Wiggle" - highly effective to prompt drivers to overtake safely and wider. Particularly useful with truck-drivers on the open highways. Similar principles in active lane-claiming on urban roads (mostly for those 70kmh and lower). These actions work because most drivers DO care. Use of a mirror is crucial to the effective implementation of these strategies.

No, the mirror does not work on its own, but wise use of it can change driver behaviour

[bychosis]

I agree. I believe Most motorists fit into the category of not wanting to hit you, and probably in two different brackets. Those that don't want to harm anything else, and those that don't want to damage their precious metal cage. Making yourself visible with wiggles, hi-vis, lighting etc helps those people.

I still think that the minority of drivers are dangerous as either incompetent or aggressive. What is a more modern issue is those in the 'don't want to harm anyone' category that are distracted by modern devices and not concentrating on not hitting anyone, not sure how many of those are around, but it is definitely a problem.

[g-boaf]

There is nobody here suggesting that dangerous motorists don't exist. We all recognise that. But that is the whole point of mirrors or head checking. Is to SEE the danger and then take action to ensure your own safety.

Mate, a head check isn't going to save you, no matter how well you do it if some lunatic is deciding to punish pass you (or hit you) with full acceleration from 200m back. Just a bit better warning of your impending doom. Anyhow, I don't need to justify myself to you.

What saved me was not panicking and definately not diverting from my line. I did look over, so yes, I did see him/her/it and heard the car. But it doesn't stop it. And Il Padrone's idea would have landed me in hospital or dead.

Making myself visible?!? Very funny indeed. I WAS VISIBLE! That's why the driver did the deliberate aggressive close pass. The driver didn't think I had a right to be there in the first place.

[BenGr]

There is nobody here suggesting that dangerous motorists don't exist. We all recognise that. But that is the whole point of mirrors or head checking. Is to SEE the danger and then take action to ensure your own safety.

Mate, a head check isn't going to save you, no matter how well you do it if some lunatic is deciding to punish pass you (or hit you) with full acceleration from 200m back. Just a bit better warning of your impending doom. Anyhow, I don't need to justify myself to you.

What saved me was not panicking and definately not diverting from my line. I did look over, so yes, I did see him/her/it and heard the car. But it doesn't stop it. And Il Padrone's idea would have landed me in hospital or dead.

Making myself visible?!? Very funny indeed. I WAS VISIBLE! That's why the driver did the deliberate aggressive close pass. The driver didn't think I had a right to be there in the first place.

Not much can stop someone trying to hit you, but what about negligence? Are you unable to account for others negligence as well?

[trailgumby]

There is nobody here suggesting that dangerous motorists don't exist. We all recognise that. But that is the whole point of mirrors or head checking. Is to SEE the danger and then take action to ensure your own safety.

Mate, a head check isn't going to save you, no matter how well you do it if some lunatic is deciding to punish pass you (or hit you) with full acceleration from 200m back. Just a bit better warning of your impending doom. Anyhow, I don't need to justify myself to you.

What saved me was not panicking and definately not diverting from my line. I did look over, so yes, I did see him/her/it and heard the car. But it doesn't stop it. And Il Padrone's idea would have landed me in hospital or dead.

Making myself visible?!? Very funny indeed. I WAS VISIBLE! That's why the driver did the deliberate aggressive close pass. The driver didn't think I had a right to be there in the first place.

Unfortunately I have been on the receiving end of this as well. In my case he didn't miss.

Fortunately I was only doing 25km/hr when he deliberately sideswiped me and knocked my bars, and even more fortunately the car behind was able to avoid turning me into road pizza. The poor woman in the following Prius had eyes like saucers. It was still enough to land me in hospital for four days and give me long term PTSD that still rears its head when I am threatened. I don't take prisoners.

It's all very well to ride wide and own the lane, and this I do, but it needs to be tempered by the knowledge that one day you'll find someone who doesn't view you as human and takes it upon themselves to teach you a lesson for having the temerity to take up too much of "their" road.

I had a near miss again on Sunday. If I hadn't flinched he'd have taken me out. Fortunately I didn't catch him.

[human909]

Mate, a head check isn't going to save you, no matter how well you do it if some lunatic is deciding to punish pass you (or hit you) with full acceleration from 200m back. Just a bit better warning of your impending doom. Anyhow, I don't need to justify myself to you.

-If I saw "DOOM" impending from 200m back then I'd be off the road. It puzzles me why you would choose to still be on the road if you observed "impending doom".
-If I observe somebody who I worry may angle for a punishment pass then I would doing the "moving wider before moving towards the curb on the approach". You can easily turn a punishment pass into a 1m++ gap by doing so.
-If you are taking the lane then you should have a good 1.5-2m on your left to play with. So avoiding punishment passes is easy if you see them coming.

No you don't need to justify yourself to me. But your fatalism attitude could be improved for your own safety.

[il padrone]

What saved me was not panicking and definately not diverting from my line. I did look over, so yes, I did see him/her/it and heard the car. But it doesn't stop it. And Il Padrone's idea would have landed me in hospital or dead.

What I was suggesting (the Wiggle) is done on an open road, especially for two-lane roads, where traffic levels are low and no oncoming traffic, when the approaching car/truck is 100-200m behind. A warning/prompt that they do need to change lanes.

Definitely NOT when the car is on your back wheel. It is a precautionary practice to prevent such scenarios ever developing; and it works very well.


Like I said, an equivalent strategy for urban roads is to claim your lane, strongly if necessary. Last Saturday when riding Whitehorse Rd I had a turd pass me super close. I had not been as alert as I should. After that I rode the rest of the way down the road in the left lane of three, riding right on the right tyre-track. All following traffic passed me in the next lane..... no grief.

[fat and old]

Mate, a head check isn't going to save you, no matter how well you do it if some lunatic is deciding to punish pass you (or hit you) with full acceleration from 200m back. Just a bit better warning of your impending doom. Anyhow, I don't need to justify myself to you.

-If I saw "DOOM" impending from 200m back then I'd be off the road. It puzzles me why you would choose to still be on the road if you observed "impending doom".

Not that I disagree with your ride wide technique, and I can't speak for G, but the few times I've had that happen I've done the same as G-Boaf..... Held my line. No one is gonna intimidate me, and if they have the nads then run me down and deal with the consequences. Stupid I know, but the red rage takes over.

[Xplora]

Gutless cowards always get what they deserve - that is one of the binding realities of metaphysics. I wonder if these close shavers realise they are essentially the same as Ivan Milat, out for the thrill of the kill?

Maybe that's the next ad campaign?

[fat and old]

Gutless cowards always get what they deserve - that is one of the binding realities of metaphysics. I wonder if these close shavers realise they are essentially the same as Ivan Milat, out for the thrill of the kill?

Nice comparison when you put it like that.

[Xplora]

I'm trying to decide if I'm clever or just nasty

[piledhigher]

Worse than that

distance by PiledHigher, on Flickr

[Xplora]

Love that video as well piled. It really highlights the fact that only the completely socially inept (aspergers/autistic) can't get the social reality of dealing with others.... you don't hold hands with a dude at the urinal, and you don't go close to a rider.

Had a boofhead come too close at a chicane near me today. That dude sadly just wrote a go slow slip for every other car in the neighbourhood... 3 incidents there, I'm going to be about a foot from the centreline in future. Too bad if you want to pass. Learn to wait.

"I bet you are one of those geniuses who thinks a garbage truck shouldn't be on the road either" is my line for next time. Covers four points. 1. You're an idiot. 2. You are part of a group of idiots aka your mates. 3. I understand your prejudice. 4. You really know better, but you want to pretend you aren't a jerk by blaming the bike rather than your own impatience. Everyone knows a garbage truck is just a fact of life, just like a bike or a bus or a truck. Wait your turn, kids, or don't drive if you can't deal with the stress.