Onus of Safety

[AUbicycles]

Thanks yugyug. I am a qualified industrial designer though my journey went elsewhere and I don't put this into practice but still have a keen interest. At the end of the day we need to blame it on the marketing departments.

[il padrone]

Yes, technology can be good. The best technology works to reduce resource use, waste and pollution, not increase it. All technology can be asssessed by this measure. Even puncture proof tyres: maybe they are a great thing, but what if the puncture resistant weave makes the tyre less than half as likely to puncture, but less than half as likely to be recycled? That's an asymmetric relationship, if you care to work it out. (I don't know for sure if thats an appropriate conjecture - but I imagine it is because the puncture resistant belts I've seen are advertised as made from petrochems like kevlar, different from the butyl petrochems in tyres). Recycling butyl rubber is hard enough, is our dislike for patching tyres reason enough to complicate its recycling?

AFAIK, just about all tyres are nearly impossible to recycle in any cost-effective manner, kevlar or not. My very puncture-resistant tyres use a harder rubber layer. All tyres have fabric belting encased in rubber. The best option with them is to re-purpose them as much as possible.

[yugyug]

Marketting departments might be a bit dodgy, but they, like consumers work on self interest within the scope of law.

The legal framework has to change - carbon trading solutions, better consumer protections, product stewardship laws, and increasingly stringent socio-environmental regulations corresponding to increasing manufacturing volumes. Done in the right way, such laws could also invigorate Australian manufacturing.

[yugyug]

Yes, technology can be good. The best technology works to reduce resource use, waste and pollution, not increase it. All technology can be asssessed by this measure. Even puncture proof tyres: maybe they are a great thing, but what if the puncture resistant weave makes the tyre less than half as likely to puncture, but less than half as likely to be recycled? That's an asymmetric relationship, if you care to work it out. (I don't know for sure if thats an appropriate conjecture - but I imagine it is because the puncture resistant belts I've seen are advertised as made from petrochems like kevlar, different from the butyl petrochems in tyres). Recycling butyl rubber is hard enough, is our dislike for patching tyres reason enough to complicate its recycling?

AFAIK, just about all tyres are nearly impossible to recycle in any cost-effective manner, kevlar or not. My very puncture-resistant tyres use a harder rubber layer. All tyres have fabric belting encased in rubber. The best option with them is to re-purpose them as much as possible.

Thanks, I could guess as much, but I'm not familiar with the current recycling technology for them. I read that the best use of waste tyres is to burn then for energy while feeding their carbon into cement or steel production. The latter might be speculative.

We don't realize how poor our recycling systems often are. There is a lot of greenwashing put out there, that we accept to morally justify consumption.

I agree it's best to use, reuse and repurpose products like tyres before they become waste.

So let's ride our tyres until we see weave showing. Us roadies anyway.

[g-boaf]

When the new model comes out with backpack missiles communicating with the radar guidance system, then I'll buy one. C'mon Garmin, I KNOW you have the technology already from your US Navy contracts.

Not sure about a rear light, but I want one of these ^^^ for dealing with magpies.

This! For both situations. Or a miniature Phalanx CIWS controlled by the radar. Driver behaviour would be considerably better.

On the topic of lights, I have a rechargable one that has been going for years and years. It even survived a mishap where it came apart at high speed (long story). It still runs perfectly well, electrical tape holds it together reliably.

[softy]

Was riding along and saw this guy in front had one of these radar garmin.

He ended up going to the same location as me so asked, how does this work?

It is far more sophisticated than i imagine, it is far more than a radar with lights on the seat stay. It pairs with the garmin headset (he had the new 1000, nice bike porn) and give a display on the screen that represents you as a dot and a scale to vehicles behind you. So you can see them approaching.

He didn't demonstrate it but it sounded quite sophisticated.
Maybe someone should do a owners review before we trash it to much. Maybe it is something quite different to anything we have seen before.

[Xplora]

Don't be silly about marketing departments. They might spout a lot of drivel but if manufacturers aren't concerning themselves with durable, quality products, and consumers aren't spending enough to afford them, then it has nothing to do with the marketing department. Consumers have to create an environment demanding quality, through responsible ethical purchasing.

If no one bought cage eggs, there would be no battery hens.

[ironhanglider]

Was riding along and saw this guy in front had one of these radar garmin.

He ended up going to the same location as me so asked, how does this work?

It is far more sophisticated than i imagine, it is far more than a radar with lights on the seat stay. It pairs with the garmin headset (he had the new 1000, nice bike porn) and give a display on the screen that represents you as a dot and a scale to vehicles behind you. So you can see them approaching.

He didn't demonstrate it but it sounded quite sophisticated.
Maybe someone should do a owners review before we trash it to much. Maybe it is something quite different to anything we have seen before.

So instead of watching where you are going, you have to watch a screen? How does this make me more likely to get home in one piece?

It is unnecessary when you claim the lane, there is usually an audible signal that comes from the car behind anyway, and that serves as a decent warning that they are about to slow down and overtake safely.

Cheers,

Cameron

[AUbicycles]

This is the review of the Backtracker. The backtracker was the forerunner for the Garmin radar. The South African team were looking at crowdfunding though it didn't materialise, that said the device and radar capabilities are sophisticated. It then went over to Garmin.

The Garmin version with the radar unit and display unit are very similar in shape (though not identical). The pairing to Garmin computers is very nice - I am anticipating very similar results to the backtracker and just waiting to get it on the road to start testing.

Review – Backtracker Radar Watches Your Back on the Bike

104584287

[human909]

I'm still quite confused by the need for this device. Their tag line is a "radar powered device to improve your visibility and awareness of what's happening behind you".

What is wrong with lights and mirror? Despite all the technology in cars, they are still the primary means of observing traffic behind your vehicle. Why are are people reinventing the wheel? I get the feeling that the only reason why this will sell is the technology freaks for whom a mirror is just too old-school. Or just good old fashioned head check.

Furthermore I'm not even sure this device gives better awareness than my ears. A mirror or a head check will give your precise position of the approaching vehicle. This radar doesn't. So what exactly am I meant to do with the information it is giving me?

I use headchecks to make lane changes and to ensure cars behind me are approaching me in a safe and suitable manner. If they aren't I adjust my road position appropriately. (Usually claiming MORE of the lane, I've never had to emergency dive off the road but it certainly is in my survival toolbox.


I'm not trying to be excessively negative. (Though I am Luddite when it comes to bicycle technology.) I simply don't see the benefit. Situation awareness starts by LOOKING at what is happening both in front of you and behind you. If you think you need this device then it implies that you aren't getting the basic road craft right.

[human909]

I suppose my thoughts can be readily summed up by the comments in this review.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/10/garm ... eview.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A) Varia will NOT keep a car from hitting you as you ride down the road. Period.
B) What Varia does do VERY WELL is remind you when you’re out in the middle of nowhere with infrequent traffic and deep into exhaustion, that a car is about to approach – snapping you back to reality.

[fat and old]

I'm still quite confused by the need for this device. Their tag line is a "radar powered device to improve your visibility and awareness of what's happening behind you".

What is wrong with lights and mirror? Despite all the technology in cars, they are still the primary means of observing traffic behind your vehicle. Why are are people reinventing the wheel? I get the feeling that the only reason why this will sell is the technology freaks for whom a mirror is just too old-school. Or just good old fashioned head check

Dunno about tech freaks, but what self respecting roadie is gonna put a mirror on his/her bike? I can see a market for these things, but not me.

[il padrone]

Dunno about tech freaks, but what self respecting roadie is gonna put a mirror on his/her bike? I can see a market for these things, but not me.

Many now do - once they realise how stylishly it can be done - IRBM.

[Mulger bill]

Ewwww!

Not the IRBM (All my dropbar bikes are so equipped), not the red leather bar tape.

But seriously? Leaving the tops bare with cables exposed bar the single strip of Nitto tape?

YUCKKK!

[find_bruce]

I wanna know why the rider wants to look at parked cars

[biker jk]

Ewwww!

Not the IRBM (All my dropbar bikes are so equipped), not the red leather bar tape.

But seriously? Leaving the tops bare with cables exposed bar the single strip of Nitto tape?

YUCKKK!

Come on now, this is a person that bought a Litespeed Carbon bike.

[Duck!]

Ewwww!

Not the IRBM (All my dropbar bikes are so equipped), not the red leather bar tape.

But seriously? Leaving the tops bare with cables exposed bar the single strip of Nitto tape?

YUCKKK!

Come on now, this is a person that bought a Litespeed Carbon bike.

Not to mention the poor wrapping around the hoods......

[trailgumby]

I find myself in broad agreement with jamessteward.

Garmin has really missed an opportunity here. I regard it as a major fail.

If their radar software could be tuned to detect speed and passing distance and throw this data up on a dashboard overlayed on video captured by a rear-facing camera, it would have the potential to make a tangible difference to rider safety by providing evidence that could be used to prosecute drivers under safe passing distance laws.

It would remove the excuse so often used by Queensland police officers to justify their lack of action on video evidence. Then we'd be able to say, shove this where the sun don't shine, QPS.

[AUbicycles]

If their radar software could be tuned to detect speed and passing distance and throw this data up on a dashboard overlayed on video captured by a rear-facing camera, it would have the potential to make a tangible difference to rider safety by providing evidence that could be used to prosecute drivers under safe passing distance laws.

Lets see if I can pair the Garmin Virb XE camera with the Radar... Not a rear facing camera as such, but lets see if it works. It pairs with the computers - but not sure how / if data is recorded or if it is for display.

[yugyug]

Don't be silly about marketing departments. They might spout a lot of drivel but if manufacturers aren't concerning themselves with durable, quality products, and consumers aren't spending enough to afford them, then it has nothing to do with the marketing department. Consumers have to create an environment demanding quality, through responsible ethical purchasing.

If no one bought cage eggs, there would be no battery hens.

100% disagree.

There is a problem when consumers buy shoddy or environmentally damaging products, but consumer behaviour is not where the solution lies, because consumers are a disorganised body up and do not literally profit from production. Consumers are structurally uncontrollable, their essential state is self interest.

Conversely, producers – mainly companies and corporations – are organised bodies compelled to make profit and they use marketing departments to facilitate that profit making by leveraging consumer self interest.

Consider:
If guns are legal to sell then people will buy them, with gun deaths a consequence.
If heroin is legal to sell, people will buy it, with overdosing a consequence.
If motor vehicles with powerful engines are legal to sell, people will buy them, with road deaths a consequence... oops!

Governments don't regulate these things by making everything legal and hoping us customers make smart choices (though corporations try on that line to avoid regulation of their industries). No, governments make policy in the social interest to restrict production and sale of dangerous products.

What I am saying therefore is that obsolescent and environmentally damaging products, unethical manufacturing and poor design need to be better regulated, just like we how already regulate guns, heroin, and excessively powerful car engines.

[softy]

Don't be silly about marketing departments. They might spout a lot of drivel but if manufacturers aren't concerning themselves with durable, quality products, and consumers aren't spending enough to afford them, then it has nothing to do with the marketing department. Consumers have to create an environment demanding quality, through responsible ethical purchasing.

If no one bought cage eggs, there would be no battery hens.

100% disagree.

There is a problem when consumers buy shoddy or environmentally damaging products, but consumer behaviour is not where the solution lies, because consumers are a disorganised body up and do not literally profit from production. Consumers are structurally uncontrollable, their essential state is self interest.

Conversely, producers – mainly companies and corporations – are organised bodies compelled to make profit and they use marketing departments to facilitate that profit making by leveraging consumer self interest.

Consider:
If guns are legal to sell then people will buy them, with gun deaths a consequence.
If heroin is legal to sell, people will buy it, with overdosing a consequence.
If motor vehicles with powerful engines are legal to sell, people will buy them, with road deaths a consequence... oops!

Governments don't regulate these things by making everything legal and hoping us customers make smart choices (though corporations try on that line to avoid regulation of their industries). No, governments make policy in the social interest to restrict production and sale of dangerous products.

What I am saying therefore is that obsolescent and environmentally damaging products, unethical manufacturing and poor design need to be better regulated, just like we how already regulate guns, heroin, and excessively powerful car engines.

I think you may of opened a can of worms there;

Maybe just the slightest thread drift from the garmin radar, hey but what do i know. Lol.

[human909]

Maybe someone should do a owners review before we trash it to much. Maybe it is something quite different to anything we have seen before.

There are several reviews online. I linked one.

The reason why it is getting trashed will not change with experienced use. The information this gives is wholly less than what a visual check will achieve. A full headcheck is great but if you don't like the twisting for a head then a mirror will give you a rear view too.

Like a previous review said. The role that this thing can have is to alert you when your mind has drifted. If you are letting yourself get to that point then the are better ways to improve your safety.

[softy]

Maybe someone should do a owners review before we trash it to much. Maybe it is something quite different to anything we have seen before.

There are several reviews online. I linked one.

The reason why it is getting trashed will not change with experienced use. The information this gives is wholly less than what a visual check will achieve. A full headcheck is great but if you don't like the twisting for a head then a mirror will give you a rear view too.

Like a previous review said. The role that this thing can have is to alert you when your mind has drifted. If you are letting yourself get to that point then the are better ways to improve your safety.

I have read the reviews;
If you think it is a gimick or rubbish that is your view and you are entitled to your opinion. But this is a forum with a number that maybe interested in the product and i have already meet a person who forked out the money and thought it was quite good.

The arguement you are putting forward can be applied to a flashing light or hi vis attire, but i also see cyclist using them.

All i am trying to say is that a number of people may see it as a useful aid. Yes i read the comment you are referring to, but this is also one persons opinion.

All i am saying is, we should keep a open mind to new tech, especially when we haven't used it yet, as our opinion is not a first hand informed one, we are basing it only hear say.

[fat and old]

Dunno about tech freaks, but what self respecting roadie is gonna put a mirror on his/her bike? I can see a market for these things, but not me.

Many now do - once they realise how stylishly it can be done - IRBM.

Yeah...I wasn't clear. I was referring to the radar.....not for me. I have a neck

[Xplora]

All i am saying is, we should keep a open mind to new tech, especially when we haven't used it yet, as our opinion is not a first hand informed one, we are basing it only hear say.

Then we wouldn't have any fun dribbling on with less than the facts

H909, if you aren't pushing yourself to the point where your mind is drifting, you aren't trying nearly hard enough. Harden up. If you ain't bonkin', you ain't ridin'