NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Cyclophiliac
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu May 10, 2018 6:49 pm

Thoglette wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Well, in my neck of the woods,


You and G-boaf need to get out more. Given enough time you'll find everything from smooth, broad asphalt to goat track labelled everything under the sun (or road regulations, in this case).

There is another subtlety which causes inter-departmental angst this side the rabbit proof fence: many "PSPs", shared paths and footpaths go off the road reserve (and therefore out of the reach of the traffic code) and onto either council land (and then under council rules) or Some Other Department (rail, ports, yadda, yadda). If you're really lucky, the PSP is on the boundary and neither mob will take responsibility.

Or even better still onto "private" property where getting stuff fixed can take half a decade.

Or even a quarter of a century, just to build a relatively short link between 2 trails: https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/our-c ... in-bridge/
But then this is in Melbourne, where a rail link between Melbourne and the airport has been discussed for donkey's years, but no action yet.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby b4igo » Thu May 10, 2018 7:15 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
Education and enforcement can never be the whole answer. All the education in the world won't stop crashes, nor will any feasible level of enforcement. And nothing will change the laws of physics, which mean a cyclist will come off a (distant) second best in a collision with a car, let alone a truck. So I am very happy to be able to cycle off the road whenever possible.


I have to say I tend to agree. Enforcement is obviously very important, but the sheer volume of traffic, narrow lanes and winding roads makes cycling quite intimidating (edit: in Sydney) compared to Adelaide where I grew up. So much so it was many years after I moved here before I pulled my bike back out of the garage. And even now I will avoid major roads where I can on the odd times I’m commuting (I do most of my riding before work now and on weekends and will happily ride on the roads during those times). There’s no way my wife would cycle in amongst Sydney traffic no matter how well behaved motorists were. To have the option to bail onto the footpath where traffic is flowing particularly well and at a reasonable pace (60-70km/hr) but there’s no shoulder, bike lane or bus lane to ride in, would not be a bad thing, in my opinion at least. At the very very very least it’s a law that should not be actively enforced unless you are riding recklessly and actually putting others in danger.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Scott_C » Thu May 10, 2018 7:51 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:Or even a quarter of a century, just to build a relatively short link between 2 trails: https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/our-c ... in-bridge/
But then this is in Melbourne, where a rail link between Melbourne and the airport has been discussed for donkey's years, but no action yet.

The need for an improvement to the bike path across the Causeway bridge at Perth was identified in a 1975 report. We are still waiting for a final plan on what to do 43 years later. They had almost committed to building a separate cycling/pedestrian bridge adjacent to the existing bridge (without a firm delivery date) but are now looking at tunnelled options and modifications to the existing heritage listed bridges as alternatives.

Cyclophiliac
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu May 10, 2018 9:16 pm

Scott_C wrote:
Cyclophiliac wrote:Or even a quarter of a century, just to build a relatively short link between 2 trails: https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/our-c ... in-bridge/
But then this is in Melbourne, where a rail link between Melbourne and the airport has been discussed for donkey's years, but no action yet.

The need for an improvement to the bike path across the Causeway bridge at Perth was identified in a 1975 report. We are still waiting for a final plan on what to do 43 years later. They had almost committed to building a separate cycling/pedestrian bridge adjacent to the existing bridge (without a firm delivery date) but are now looking at tunnelled options and modifications to the existing heritage listed bridges as alternatives.

Yes, I think I cycled over that once (I spent my first 30 years living in the Perth metro area). The Google StreetView pictures show it could use some improvement.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby bychosis » Fri May 11, 2018 7:29 am

NSW needs to bring in a goon line or similar way of online reporting for drivers. They do it for littering from vehicles, why can’t we submit video for driving infringements too.

I tried to report a dangerous elderly driver and had to physically visit a police station and The officer took a note on a scrap of paper and probably didn’t even enter it in the system. I didn’t want the driver booked, just wanted someone to review the drivers ability as she was veering toward oncoming traffic and couldn’t hold a straight line.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Fri May 11, 2018 7:43 am

The NSW put out a regular newsletter where they pat themself on the back (of course) include self-praise for topics such as unpopular motorways.

In the latest edition from today - they have however included welcomed phrasing for the safe passing law. "Drivers must give cyclists safe space"

I like it that this concentrates on the most important part (within their current strategy) to help increase the safety of bike riders as the bike bell and the bike helmet are less important when it comes to preventing collisions with vehicles.

Website: NSW Government News: Drivers must give cyclists safe space

Fairly clear information is used

If drivers cannot pass a cyclist safely, they should slow down and wait until it is safe to do so, leaving the minimum distance.

Drivers who do not allow the minimum distance when passing a cyclists will receive a $330 fine and lose two demerit points.

To help drivers provide the minimum distance, some exemptions to the road rules apply. This includes drivers being permitted to cross centre lines when passing a cyclist, though only if they have a clear view of any approaching traffic and it is safe to pass.


There is a reference to a study - though details or access to the full study is not provided.

Minister for Roads, Maritime and Freight Melinda Pavey said an independent evaluation of the trial estimated a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle casualty crashes.


This is certainly positive but again, my criticism is in the lack of transparency as it important to also back-up the information (even if it does support cycling) as the ministers for transport and department have a history or using stats but not providing details and even ignoring or refusing to provide details.

The missing link however has not been address - this is enforcement. In practical steps it means training and guidance for the NSW police to understand and actively enforce it as well as improving the process of accepting reports from bike riders.

It has proven difficult for bike riders to submit their reports and video evidence and get results as it appears that each police station will respond differently - this can include a complete rejection or it can be a failure to process. Bike riders essentially need to know:
- How can violations be reported?
- What do the riders need to do/provide - what information, details, evidence is necessary?
- What are the possible outcomes?

For example, in a serious case, a bike rider may wish to escalate it while there may be cases where riders wish to report the illegal behaviour to simply ensure that a drivers number plate is on record so that it is documented that they behave badly or a verbal warning is given with no formal traffic infringement notice. Understanding the desired outcome is crucial in ensuring that the appropriate information is provided and that the bike rider knows that the police will react accordingly.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Fri May 11, 2018 11:24 am

AUbicycles wrote:
The missing link however has not been address - this is enforcement. In practical steps it means training and guidance for the NSW police to understand and actively enforce it as well as improving the process of accepting reports from bike riders.


I don't see the need to train all police.
If they just created a proper cyclist liaison division, which could be a single officer, then they would be an expert in evaluating footage and being on the phone with a local officer when statements need to be taken in person.

Everyone running cameras is tech savvy enough to deal with that liaison initial contact online (and even those who aren't will get a lot of community help offered if they ask), so all very efficient to manage at low cost.

Setting up an unmarked police bike with adequate cameras for good prosecution is also pretty cheap and easy.
Only have to book one person a week and make a big deal of it on their social media and it creates the illusion that there are heaps out there which makes people afraid of being caught.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 11, 2018 11:59 am

Jmuzz wrote:I don't see the need to train all police.

I do. The problem is not in their heads, it's in their hearts.

Until they've walkedpedaled a mile in a cyclist's shoes that's not going to change.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Fri May 11, 2018 3:37 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Until they've walkedpedaled a mile in a cyclist's shoes that's not going to change.


That and 100 other minority groups. Which is impossible.
That's why they create liaison and taskforce squads to deal with specific community groups.

Local police stations shouldn't be dealing with close pass complaints, that can be done better online by experts including civilian staff (who cost a lot less to train and pay).
When highway patrol is attending a bicycle incident they should get liaison on phone loudspeaker while talking to the cyclist.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
Thoglette wrote:
Until they've walkedpedaled a mile in a cyclist's shoes that's not going to change.


That and 100 other minority groups. Which is impossible.

If we're going to get literal then literally everybody in my company does safety; ethics and information security training, every year.

It's not hard, it's just expensive. (50,000+ people x 1hr x 3 + fees.) And it's followed up, both at a corporate and individual level, with strict sanctions. (Let's just say our regulator is not ASIC)

Jmuzz wrote:That's why they create liaison and taskforce squads to deal with specific community groups.

Liaison is good for many things but we still have to rely on citizen journalists to call things as they are (e.g. this when we were told he fell "after colliding with a police vehicle").

The issue is not about 'failing to understand cultural sensitivities' within a specific community group. I argue (along with many researchers) that the whole concept of "cyclists" as forming a cohesive group is, well, utter crap.

Utter crap which plays straight to the sort of bias that has the NSW police force running Operation Pedro not just once but five times. And keeping a straight face.

And it's just not acceptable when the police don't even know the road rules. And yes, one of the officers involved was supposed to be enforcing the 1m law. But instead we have "two police cars and three police motorcycles" tied up with this mess.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Fri May 11, 2018 7:17 pm

Practical experience always helps change perspective - but the training / instruction is necessary so police know how to deal with it. Previously many haven't handled it very well and with the appropriate guidance they know how to deal with it. It starts at the duty officer and possibly an officer in the station who looks after this types of reports.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Fri May 11, 2018 10:13 pm

I suspect the problem is only a little training and much more so attitude. The police like things where there is cut and dry numbers, such as red light speed camera's and breath tests. Where there is lower level of metrics there is an increased likely hood that the person ticketed will contest the ticket which brings in a whole stack of more work. Taking the attitude a step further [backwards], its a lot less work to fog off the complainant than to issue the ticket
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby roberto73 » Sat May 12, 2018 3:11 pm

AUb wrote
There is a reference to a study - though details or access to the full study is not provided.



It's herehttp://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/campaigns/go-together/faqs.html, section 6.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby roberto73 » Sat May 12, 2018 3:41 pm

Not sure if this is good news or not, form that report:
Quote:
Less than 3 per cent of drivers reported being involved in crashes when they were overtaking bicycles.
 About a fifth of the drivers surveyed said they were annoyed with the rule, but this did not worsen in the year after the trial began. The percentage of cyclists reporting intentional harassment by drivers also did not change after the trial began.
 Cyclists reported fewer incidents of road rage after the Trial commended.
<End quote>

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Sat May 12, 2018 4:29 pm

Thanks Bob, given my comments about the lack of education & enforcement I found this interesting

  • The evaluation showed widespread support for retaining the MPD rule. Implementation of the MPD rule could be improved by further public education and working with Police to assess approaches to enforcing the rule.
    ...
  • While Police had concerns about enforcing the rule, Revenue NSW reports that 61 infringement notices related to MPD rules were issued between 1 March 2016 and 28 February 2018.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby LateStarter » Sat May 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Revenue NSW reports that 61 infringement notices related to MPD rules were issued between 1 March 2016 and 28 February 2018.


61 in 2 years, less than 3 per month, I must get 61 too close passes a week, nsw finest aren't trying very hard are they . Compared with hundreds for helmets each Pedro and dozens for bloody bells!

No wonder cycling is going down the plug hole in nsw

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Sat May 12, 2018 7:34 pm

LateStarter wrote:
Revenue NSW reports that 61 infringement notices related to MPD rules were issued between 1 March 2016 and 28 February 2018.


61 in 2 years, less than 3 per month, I must get 61 too close passes a week, nsw finest aren't trying very hard are they . Compared with hundreds for helmets each Pedro and dozens for bloody bells!

No wonder cycling is going down the plug hole in nsw

Information on fines in NSW is currently at http://www.revenue.nsw.gov.au/info/statistics

No bell fines
Jul 2015 - Jun 2016 - 218 = $19,573
Jul 2016 - Jun 2017 - 550 = $60,500
Jul 2017 -Apr 2018 - 535 = $57,780

No helmet fines
Jul 2015 - Jun 2016 - 5,401 = $899,559
Jul 2016 - Jun 2017 - 5,812 = $1,888,900
Jul 2017 -Apr 2018 - 4,898 = $1,616,340

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AdelaidePeter » Sat May 12, 2018 10:55 pm

roberto73 wrote:Less than 3 per cent of drivers reported being involved in crashes when they were overtaking bicycles.


Umm what? That can't mean what it seems to mean - that 3% of all NSW drivers have had a crash while overtaking a bicycle. I found the report and saw that sentence in context, and still don't know what it actually means. But I also found this:

"Drivers reported no change in crashes and near misses with a vehicle travelling in the opposite direction when the other vehicle was overtaking a cyclist (around 1 per cent for crashes and 5 per cent for near misses).

Which I THINK means (a) 1% of all crashes are due to overtaking a bicycle, and (b) this rate (1%) was unchanged during the passing distance trial.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:59 am

Just saw a highway patrol cop in an anti cycling whinge thread on Facebook mention that some new passing distance enforcement tech is coming soon.
No specifics, but sounds like an indication they are finally getting radar distance devices and will be conducting operations with unmarked bikes and the motorcycle cops down the road.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:12 am

Please screen shot it jmuzz
Image

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:36 am

I won't show it publicly in case it comes back on the cop for leaking and saying somewhat negative things about cycling laws, it's within private group.

But in his role he probably would be involved so a good leak that something is finally coming.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:21 am

Jmuzz wrote:I won't show it publicly in case it comes back on the cop for leaking and saying somewhat negative things about cycling laws, it's within private group.

But in his role he probably would be involved so a good leak that something is finally coming.

Just keep it for record
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