NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

human909
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Wed May 09, 2018 8:56 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Private video is always dodgy since it is quite easy to fight in court and it gets very expensive for prosecution to prove it is valid.

As opposed to a non 'calibrated' witness? Really if our authorities cared about this they could ready issue infringements. And provide video stills as part of the infringement notice as we do with speed cameras.

If people choose to challenge their infringements then that is another thing entirely. But lets stop accepting policing excuses because the reality is they do issue infringements and charges regularly with far less tangible evidence.

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g-boaf
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 09, 2018 10:19 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Permanent law may see a stepup in more serious enforcement.

Private video is always dodgy since it is quite easy to fight in court and it gets very expensive for prosecution to prove it is valid.


How hard can it be, it doesn't take a genius to know a deliberately dangerous pass. I believe it when I see it.

Jmuzz wrote:Hopefully now that trial is finished NSW will trial bikes on footpaths and crossings.


That's one I'm not sure I'd support. Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 10, 2018 7:41 am

g-boaf wrote:
That's one I'm not sure I'd support. Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.


I think NSW and VIC are the only states still banning it.
How is a bike at walking/jogging pace any different to a pedestrian?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 10, 2018 8:26 am

Jmuzz wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
That's one I'm not sure I'd support. Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.


I think NSW and VIC are the only states still banning it.
How is a bike at walking/jogging pace any different to a pedestrian?


The % of bikes being ridden at walking pace are miniscule, and that's where the problem is

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Thu May 10, 2018 8:41 am

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-09/nsw-government-new-laws-give-cyclists-buffer/9741892

Does anyone know if they added the 1/1/5mtr rule to passing on the left?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 10, 2018 8:51 am

MichaelB wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
That's one I'm not sure I'd support. Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.


I think NSW and VIC are the only states still banning it.
How is a bike at walking/jogging pace any different to a pedestrian?


The % of bikes being ridden at walking pace are miniscule, and that's where the problem is


Even Mr Joe Normal on his bike shaped object with dark clothes, no lights and no helmet is riding at night on the footpath at 15km/h or better. So I guess it would be unreasonable to expect these ordinary riders to go at walking/jogging speed. They'll see it as another rule to be ignored.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu May 10, 2018 9:20 am

g-boaf wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:
I think NSW and VIC are the only states still banning it.
How is a bike at walking/jogging pace any different to a pedestrian?


The % of bikes being ridden at walking pace are miniscule, and that's where the problem is


Even Mr Joe Normal on his bike shaped object with dark clothes, no lights and no helmet is riding at night on the footpath at 15km/h or better. So I guess it would be unreasonable to expect these ordinary riders to go at walking/jogging speed. They'll see it as another rule to be ignored.


Yet it works just fine in the other states and territories. Personally, I see it as almost indispensable now (in SA), because it gives me a safe alternative when the road is dangerous.

Yes a few cyclists go too fast, but that's not enough to offset the great benefit to all the others.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 10, 2018 9:46 am

AdelaidePeter wrote:Yet it works just fine in the other states and territories. Personally, I see it as almost indispensable now (in SA), because it gives me a safe alternative when the road is dangerous.
.


And other countries with hundreds of times more cycling.

In part it changes the cycling culture from sport dominated to a more efficient form of walking.

The other states are trialing it and as far as I have heard the trials are going well with no problems of increased injury.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Thu May 10, 2018 10:15 am

g-boaf wrote:Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.

Dangerous for bikes!? You have to be kidding. Ride to the conditions. It works in most other states and in many parts of the world.

MichaelB wrote:The % of bikes being ridden at walking pace are miniscule, and that's where the problem is

Where is the problem? Most of the states are managing just fine with bicycles being allowed on the footpaths. All states have shared paths which often don't differ too much from footpaths except for designation. Many shared mall area manage just fine too (eg Southbank, Melbourne).

I agree whole heatedly that for fast efficient cycle infrastructure separation from pedestrians and motorist is ideal. However once we get away from ideal safety of road users should be a priority and prevent by law cyclists from choosing a safer option is just daft.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 10, 2018 10:30 am

human909 wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.

Dangerous for bikes!? You have to be kidding. Ride to the conditions. It works in most other states and in many parts of the world.


Some of them barely qualify as footpaths they are that bad. Just seems a nasty short cut. Many parts of the world just put in proper bike paths or shared use paths instead, and make an effort to maintain them rather than leaving them to crumble as is normal here.

If you want crumbling infrastructure, then fair enough. But I think our councils and government departments should actually maintain things to a decent standard.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Thu May 10, 2018 11:20 am

g-boaf wrote:Some of them barely qualify as footpaths they are that bad.

I'm not sure what the big issue is. Cracks? Potholes? What exactly are you meaning when you talk about crumbling infrastructure. From my experience our footpaths are perfectly navigable.

If you are encountering hazards slow down, it isn't that hard.

g-boaf wrote:Many parts of the world just put in proper bike paths or shared use paths instead, and make an effort to maintain them rather than leaving them to crumble as is normal here.

In many parts The Netherlands the roads and bike paths look like this:
Image

g-boaf wrote:If you want crumbling infrastructure, then fair enough. But I think our councils and government departments should actually maintain things to a decent standard.

I'm confused on what you deem to be a decent standard. Bicycles are more capable on rough terrain than motor vehicles. Not that I find much of that on road or on our footpaths.


And for fun and in case you think brick roads are a thing of the past....

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 10, 2018 11:29 am

g-boaf wrote:That's one I'm not sure I'd support. Some footpaths are just totally unsuitable for the purpose, maybe even dangerous for bikes because they are in such a state of disrepair.


Which is, and remains, utterly irrelevant.

We need to remove the various anti-cycling and anti-pedestrian elements from the model & state road regulations.

We need to start enforcing (hello NSW, even QLD can do it) the existing close pass; reckless driving and assault laws. (one of that set of videos arguably qualifies as assault).

We need to start educating health ministers and finance ministers that the current failure of planning around transport choices is causing massive pain for both of them.
Last edited by Thoglette on Thu May 10, 2018 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 10, 2018 11:30 am

human909 wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Many parts of the world just put in proper bike paths or shared use paths instead, and make an effort to maintain them rather than leaving them to crumble as is normal here.

In many parts The Netherlands the roads and bike paths look like this:
Image

g-boaf wrote:If you want crumbling infrastructure, then fair enough. But I think our councils and government departments should actually maintain things to a decent standard.

I'm confused on what you deem to be a decent standard. Bicycles are more capable on rough terrain than motor vehicles. Not that I find much of that on road or on our footpaths.


Some of the paths around here do not look like that - they are completely broken up to the point where elderly people on mobility scooters have to turn off the footpath onto the road to get around obstacles or completely broken paths.

That's dangerous for them and it's just not good enough. You need to remember that riders aren't the only people who have to use these paths. The photo you provided looks incredibly smooth. Let people ride on footpaths yes, but fix the foopaths up as well.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm

Adding laws to allow cyclists on footpaths seems to me to be just another attempt at segregation, i.e. trying to get more cyclists off the roads, where they (apparently) get in motorists' way.

I'd prefer to have (a) PROPER enforcement of the close-passing laws (and adding these laws to the states that don't yet have them) and (b) more education of motorists in what the cyclists' rights and responsibilities are, because too many motorists have no clue about what the cyclist-related road rules are.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu May 10, 2018 12:19 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:Adding laws to allow cyclists on footpaths seems to me to be just another attempt at segregation, i.e. trying to get more cyclists off the roads, where they (apparently) get in motorists' way.


(Removed a comment)

Who cares if there is segregation, so long as more people are cycling, and doing it more safely? Allowing cycling on footpaths would probably encourage more cyclists, and certainly wouldn't discourage any.
Last edited by AdelaidePeter on Thu May 10, 2018 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 10, 2018 12:23 pm

g-boaf wrote:Let people ride on footpaths yes, but fix the foopaths up as well.


Being legal to ride on footpath is where we started with the branching of the topic.

The state of footpaths is totally different issue. And legal footpath use certainly shouldn't be allowed to become an excuse for not building shared and dedicated paths suitable for faster use.

The point of legal footpath is that it gives an option vs a dangerous road or dismounting and walking in cycling cleats.
Cyclists on a footpath should be going slow and giving pedestrians priority, the alternative option is to engage vehicle mode and move to the road to go faster or seek out a shared/dedicated path route.

The laws also allow for a sign to ban footpath use at locations/times where it is assessed as truely unsuitable.
So it is really a change from a whitelist system (only allowed on path with sign) to blacklist system (allowed on any path unless sign).

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 10, 2018 12:32 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:Adding laws to allow cyclists on footpaths seems to me to be just another attempt at segregation, i.e. trying to get more cyclists off the roads, where they (apparently) get in motorists' way.
.


Lots of people don't want to be on the road with cars, that's why they don't ride.
They don't ride scooter/motorbike for the same reason.

Hundreds of cars crash into cars daily and it has nothing to do with passing distances. Just terrible driving standards and humans being humans.
A lot more people will ride when they don't have to deal with that fear, they will probably never become road/sport riders, but they will happily ride their small wheel bikes with baskets on the front instead of walking.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu May 10, 2018 12:41 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
Cyclophiliac wrote:Adding laws to allow cyclists on footpaths seems to me to be just another attempt at segregation, i.e. trying to get more cyclists off the roads, where they (apparently) get in motorists' way.
.


Lots of people don't want to be on the road with cars, that's why they don't ride.
They don't ride scooter/motorbike for the same reason.

Hundreds of cars crash into cars daily and it has nothing to do with passing distances. Just terrible driving standards and humans being humans.
A lot more people will ride when they don't have to deal with that fear, they will probably never become road/sport riders, but they will happily ride their small wheel bikes with baskets on the front instead of walking.

Exactly, which is why my previous post said that we need enforcement and education, to make the roads safer and more appealing for cyclists (and potential cyclists) to use. We have just as much right to use the roads as motorists, because our taxes pay for the roads.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu May 10, 2018 12:51 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:
Cyclophiliac wrote:Adding laws to allow cyclists on footpaths seems to me to be just another attempt at segregation, i.e. trying to get more cyclists off the roads, where they (apparently) get in motorists' way.
.


Lots of people don't want to be on the road with cars, that's why they don't ride.
They don't ride scooter/motorbike for the same reason.

Hundreds of cars crash into cars daily and it has nothing to do with passing distances. Just terrible driving standards and humans being humans.
A lot more people will ride when they don't have to deal with that fear, they will probably never become road/sport riders, but they will happily ride their small wheel bikes with baskets on the front instead of walking.

Exactly, which is why my previous post said that we need enforcement and education, to make the roads safer and more appealing for cyclists (and potential cyclists) to use. We have just as much right to use the roads as motorists, because our taxes pay for the roads.


Education and enforcement can never be the whole answer. All the education in the world won't stop crashes, nor will any feasible level of enforcement. And nothing will change the laws of physics, which mean a cyclist will come off a (distant) second best in a collision with a car, let alone a truck. So I am very happy to be able to cycle off the road whenever possible.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 10, 2018 2:06 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:And nothing will change the laws of physics, which means

....we need to drop speed limits in the majority of residential and urban streets to a level that ensures that pedestrians and cyclists have a much better chance of survival. Best practice is 30kph, particularly given the tendency to treat the limit as a minimum.

This will have the double benefit of reducing the cognitive load on drivers to a level where they have a hope in hell of maintaining situational awareness, thus avoiding the "he came out of nowhere" / SMIDSY problem.

Also, we need to remove the inherently dangerous vehicles from these same streets or allow them only by exception (e.g. permit and not during "rush hour"). For a start HGVs with poor visibility; those HGVs with poor tracking (pretty much all trailers bar the basic semi or bobcat carrier) and those HGVs that are not servicing that location (i.e. "rat running")
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 10, 2018 2:53 pm

human909 wrote:
MichaelB wrote:The % of bikes being ridden at walking pace are miniscule, and that's where the problem is

Where is the problem? Most of the states are managing just fine with bicycles being allowed on the footpaths. All states have shared paths which often don't differ too much from footpaths except for designation. Many shared mall area manage just fine too (eg Southbank, Melbourne).

....


:?: :?: (My highlight above).

Well, in my neck of the woods, 'footpaths' and 'shared pedestrian/cycle paths' are two entirely different beasts altogether. The latter is predominantly interrupted by driveways and business entrances, where the other isn't. Yes, they are sometimes very similar, but mostly not.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 10, 2018 3:17 pm

MichaelB wrote:
human909 wrote:
MichaelB wrote:The % of bikes being ridden at walking pace are miniscule, and that's where the problem is

Where is the problem? Most of the states are managing just fine with bicycles being allowed on the footpaths. All states have shared paths which often don't differ too much from footpaths except for designation. Many shared mall area manage just fine too (eg Southbank, Melbourne).

....


:?: :?: (My highlight above).

Well, in my neck of the woods, 'footpaths' and 'shared pedestrian/cycle paths' are two entirely different beasts altogether. The latter is predominantly interrupted by driveways and business entrances, where the other isn't. Yes, they are sometimes very similar, but mostly not.


Around here, they are way different. The footpaths are so broken up (nothing like those beautiful smooth brick ones) they are a hazard to pedestrians, let alone anyone else. They've not been maintained properly for years. And they are barely wide enough for one person to walk along. Add overgrown trees, hedges, etc and the path is gone.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby fat and old » Thu May 10, 2018 3:21 pm

human909 wrote:
And for fun and in case you think brick roads are a thing of the past....


That thing is effin A grouse!! :lol: Of course, it's another Holland (in particular)/Euro centric application. But grouse nonetheless.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby fat and old » Thu May 10, 2018 3:23 pm

g-boaf wrote:Around here, they are way different. The footpaths are so broken up (nothing like those beautiful smooth brick ones) they are a hazard to pedestrians, let alone anyone else. They've not been maintained properly for years. And they are barely wide enough for one person to walk along. Add overgrown trees, hedges, etc and the path is gone.


Our bike paths locally are the same. 30mm of HMA laid by a bunch of work for the dole and community service order types over 30 years ago. TBH, it's a wonder they lasted this long. Or how about this....the CCT; one of the busiest commuter paths in Melbs....has old rail lines in it, parallel with travel. Why? Because that paragon of sustainable transport the local Greens councillor in Yarra insists they stay for "heritage" value. I !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! you not

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.779 ... 312!8i6656

Look at that shiz!!! Brand new path; busiest crossing in the inner north

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 10, 2018 5:05 pm

MichaelB wrote:Well, in my neck of the woods,


You and G-boaf need to get out more. Given enough time you'll find everything from smooth, broad asphalt to goat track labelled everything under the sun (or road regulations, in this case).

There is another subtlety which causes inter-departmental angst this side the rabbit proof fence: many "PSPs", shared paths and footpaths go off the road reserve (and therefore out of the reach of the traffic code) and onto either council land (and then under council rules) or Some Other Department (rail, ports, yadda, yadda). If you're really lucky, the PSP is on the boundary and neither mob will take responsibility.

Or even better still onto "private" property where getting stuff fixed can take half a decade.
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