NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

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biker jk
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:22 pm

Nate, what an absolute a-hole of a driver. Glad you weren't badly injured. All the best in getting some justice for this heinous behaviour.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:58 pm

Damn...

Glad you're OK Nate, been a while :)
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:44 pm

Again? :(

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-left ... t3xmm.html

The SMH video was titled truck allegedly crashes into cyclists... How can it be allegedly, when the evidence is a clear as day! :roll:

A number of riders very seriously injured. And wasn't this 1m law supposed to stop this happening? Or was that the plastic ID card...

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:52 pm

g-boaf wrote:Again? :(

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-left ... t3xmm.html

The SMH video was titled truck allegedly crashes into cyclists... How can it be allegedly, when the evidence is a clear as day! :roll:

A number of riders very seriously injured. And wasn't this 1m law supposed to stop this happening? Or was that the plastic ID card...


I watched it on Channel 9 news and it was sickening. The article says they were riding two by two and I presume they were in the left lane rather than the shoulder (which is too narrow), so it's amazing how bad the driving must have been to hit them.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:41 pm

Statement on the dropping of mandatory ID https://www.nsw.gov.au/news/identification-solutions-bicycle-riders

I noticed the following line -
the first six months of cycling reforms, which has delivered improved road safety outcomes for bicycle riders


No considering that only 15 or so motorists were convicted under the 1m law, I curious how there can be an improved safety outcome from what has happened
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Leethal » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:51 pm

mikesbytes wrote:...I noticed the following line -
the first six months of cycling reforms, which has delivered improved road safety outcomes for bicycle riders


No considering that only 15 or so motorists were convicted under the 1m law, I curious how there can be an improved safety outcome from what has happened


Pure statistics, being the NSW Govt. has deterred enough cyclists from riding such that the overall number of reported incidents will likely decrease - as there are less cyclists for motorists to run down. Watch for the clickbait media that'll surely follow...

BUT, the statistic that I'm sure we're all interested in, is has the proportion of incidents per number of riders dropped - as I don't see any real change in attitude on the roads. :(
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:14 pm

Cross-posting from the MM thread as I thought it is probably mroe relevant here:

The money shot from the successful prosecution of the green ute:

Image

The following frame shows the left hand edge of the ute's tyre passing over the left hand edge of the "0".
Image

The bike passes through the middle of the "4".
Image

The rear wheel kisses the left hand edge of the "0".
Image

This or similar appears to be what's necessary to prove MPD infringements o the required standard of "beyond reasonable doubt".

**** If you do not include marked-up frame captures like this in your written submission it appears to be impossible to get police attention on MPD infringements. I got no traction with the second incident until I wrote a second letter with a similarly marked-up frame capture from the vid. ****

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby stoogey » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:08 pm

Hey Trailgumby,

I had a car overtake and merge in-front of me and have it all on video, going to take some still frames and mark it up like you suggested.

Where and who did you report this to?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:15 pm

Hi Stoogey, I sent it to my local cop shop. The advice I have received is to address it to the Duty Officer at your local area command. You will need to call 131444 to find out where that is.

However, I haven't given the full context. Those photos were part of a much longer submission. Happy to send you copy if you can PM me your email address.

However, before I do that, you have to answer a question: are you prepared to go to court to testify, and possibly have your laptop subpoenaed to prove that you didn't edit or manipulate the video in any way?

If not, then I recommend you do not proceed. Court is a shark tank. You *can* get eaten.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby stoogey » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:00 am

I guess the offence wasn't serious enough for me to go testify in court over it since I managed to avoid injury.

I'm still interested in seeing the longer submission, so I know what to do when I actually get run over next time :s

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby stoogey » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:06 am

trailgumby wrote:However, before I do that, you have to answer a question: are you prepared to go to court to testify, and possibly have your laptop subpoenaed to prove that you didn't edit or manipulate the video in any way?


Any idea if providing the original footage and original equipment on microSD is sufficient? I use a as200v Sony Action cam that captures GPS data with timestamp as an additional file on the microSD when it records.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:02 am

stoogey wrote:
trailgumby wrote:However, before I do that, you have to answer a question: are you prepared to go to court to testify, and possibly have your laptop subpoenaed to prove that you didn't edit or manipulate the video in any way?


Any idea if providing the original footage and original equipment on microSD is sufficient? I use a as200v Sony Action cam that captures GPS data with timestamp as an additional file on the microSD when it records.

Providing the original media on which your device recorded the incident is the gold standard. It absolutely refutes any accusation of tampering with or editing the recording. If you can afford to do so, send that. Hoever...

For cost reasons I have copied the footage to DVD for submission to the cops, and for your initial report I would do the same as their paper trail handling does not fill me with confidence as you do not get a name until they ring you with the Event Number. Too easy for the evidence to go astray and then you're stranded.

However, my Snr Sgt neighbour read me the riot act about all the things that could go wrong in a court case, including having my laptop subpoena'd to prove that I didn't tamper with the recording. The defence can do it, and often will in such matters, just to be unpleasant and maximise pain for their accusers.

So I will be buying a few extra SD cards and keeping them in reserve so I can provide the original SD cards when needed.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:08 am

So far I have avoided injury as well. However, as I make the point in my submission, these MPD offenses are no different to drink driving and speeding, which carry serious penalties commensurate with the expected levels of harm that can occur if they are allowed to continue unchecked.

They are imposing unnecessary and unwanted levels of extreme risk upon you. I do not buy the "no harm no foul" attitude. It is a matter of when, not if.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:43 pm

Thanks:

http://www.nsw.cycling.org.au/Get-Invol ... he-premier

About time. However, the wording is still too soft. Some drivers step into their cars with the intent to menace or seriously injure riders and wear this as a badge of honour.

I'll be making my thoughts clear on that, now that I know how to do so directly.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:59 pm

g-boaf wrote:However, the wording is still too soft. Some drivers step into their cars with the intent to menace or seriously injure riders and wear this as a badge of honour.

Sadly, yes they do.

Utterly appalling.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:37 pm

My day at work today started off very well indeed. :)

I received a call around 9am from the police officer investigating a deliberate close pass that was perpetrated against me on 30th of June, advising that the Traffic Infringement Notice has been issued yesterday.

Yes, that was almost an entire 6 months. 8 more days and it would have gone statute barred.

So, why did it take so long? Long story short, it was partly my fault and partly the Police.

Initially I was about 8 weeks late in submitting it due to a) work being flat out due to EOFY and b) being told "one at a time please" by the officer investigating my incident from 12th June.

Then it took a few weeks to get allocated to an officer, seemingly only after I followed up. Finally I got a call about a week before we were due to head off to Europe for three weeks advising the Event Number and the officer's name. I thanked her and advised I would be in touch to arrange to come in to give a statement on my return.

About 2 weeks after I returned, I called to enquire as to progress, only to be advised that the officer was on leave but she had classified it as "no offense proved" on the basis of no contact no foul. I was livid. NO attempt at contact by phone or email. I must admit I did not endear myself to the officers with my reaction.

A week or so later after being bumped around between officers who all refused to tell me the exact words she used in her notes (apparently they're not allowed to share that stuff) I contacted the traffic section and spoke to the section's 2IC. It was only when I told him that the lane was 2.98m wide, the vehicle was either 1.83m or 2.1m wide depending on model year, and I'm 465mm wide and it was therefore physically impossible for him to have provided a metre that I got his attention.

It took me a week to get to writing up a follow up letter with this summarised and laid out plainly on a marked-up still from the video, and do up *another* copy of the video and pro-forma statement, and deliver it.

I was then told they could not take action until the original investigating officer got back from leave yesterday.

To tell the truth I seriously doubted they would action it before it went statute barred, and I figured they would just write it off as not proven and there would be little I could do except get BNSW to make some noise after it was too late.

So today I am very pleasantly surprised. I will write to the Traffic section officer and thank him. I owe him an apology for not trusting him to follow through. The original investigating officer was given some firm direction on what she needed to do, which was very welcome.

In short, the amount of work to package up the evidence to get a traffic infringement notice issued off privately submitted video footage is significant, but the upside is that through the learning process I have stumbled across how to get it done in a way that
a) meets the requirements for a "beyond reasonable doubt" level of proof
b) gets police attention
c) is taking less time with each incident

Not every close pass I catch will meet the first requirement, but if I build a track record and teach others what is needed to do the same, hopefully we can change police attitudes and get them to start mounting operations.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:31 am

Well done

Considering the huge resistance there is to proceed with a violation, your experiences provide the basis of building a template on how to construct, submit and follow thru
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Xplora » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:40 am

trailgumby wrote: she had classified it as "no offense proved" on the basis of no contact no foul.


This is extremely useful information, because it establishes that some police simply don't know the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. There is an offence, created by statute, that confirms that no contact no foul is no longer an acceptable excuse.

The information about the width of the lane, the bike and the car is good stuff as well, also making any pursuit a slam dunk for the police. The information isn't hard to find but when you know that they just don't know what they are doing, it can't hurt for the statement.

Bit of a serious embarrassment for the first cop; the police aren't silly. They know this stuff gets around the internet.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby redsonic » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:25 pm

Well done with this, TG. In Qld, we can search a car's model and year by the number plate. That would likely have enabled you to eliminate the uncertainty in the vehicle's width.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:02 pm

Xplora wrote:
trailgumby wrote: she had classified it as "no offense proved" on the basis of no contact no foul.


This is extremely useful information, because it establishes that some police simply don't know the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. There is an offence, created by statute, that confirms that no contact no foul is no longer an acceptable excuse.

The information about the width of the lane, the bike and the car is good stuff as well, also making any pursuit a slam dunk for the police. The information isn't hard to find but when you know that they just don't know what they are doing, it can't hurt for the statement.

Bit of a serious embarrassment for the first cop; the police aren't silly. They know this stuff gets around the internet.

If it's not a slam dunk the police won't touch it. Reasonable doubt.

I don't know how the constable could possibly have come to the conclusion she did, I even mentioned the specific road rule (144-1) in the complaint. I won't speculate further as I think her colleagues were unimpressed with her conduct.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:06 pm

redsonic wrote:Well done with this, TG. In Qld, we can search a car's model and year by the number plate. That would likely have enabled you to eliminate the uncertainty in the vehicle's width.

It was difficult to tell exactly what model year it was, unfortunately. The only real databases were US-based and the model year on the RMS site was when it changed and went to the wider dimension for the newer model.

So I went with the narrower dimension to be conservative; the offense was still provable on that basis. And a tape measure would easily resolve it anyway.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:48 pm

The local traffic sergeant says he won't be investigating this Minimum Passing Distance infringement I reported because he has no idea whether the measurements I've supplied per the photo below are right or not.

His boss the Acting Inspector thought this was a rather odd response and is getting him to call me back to explain it to me personally. I think it will be an interesting conversation.

Should I offer to buy him a tape measure?

Image

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Leethal » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:02 am

trailgumby wrote:...Should I offer to buy him a tape measure?

Image


Sounds like laziness on his behalf. Do you ride past this location often? If so, and as you suggest, supplying an additional photo showing tape measure distances from the curb may be all you need; and better than allowing the police to drop the infringement!
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Warin » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:53 am

1) The distances can be checked using the crossing markings ... suggest the Sargent take himself to the location! The crossing marking width can be scaled from your photo to get a reasonable estimation of the distance between the two vehicles. Print the photo out at a large scale and include the location - write it on the photo, sign and date it.

2) The clearance is between;

the outside of your vehicle (usually the end of your handle bar)

AND

the outside of their vehicle (for cars usually the outside edge of the external rear vision mirror)

--------------------------
If 'no harm, no foul' is used by the Police ...why then are they booking people for speeding... most of the time there is no foul here too.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby shintemaster » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:01 am

Warin wrote:1) The distances can be checked using the crossing markings ... suggest the Sargent take himself to the location! The crossing marking width can be scaled from your photo to get a reasonable estimation of the distance between the two vehicles. Print the photo out at a large scale and include the location - write it on the photo, sign and date it.

2) The clearance is between;

the outside of your vehicle (usually the end of your handle bar)

AND

the outside of their vehicle (for cars usually the outside edge of the external rear vision mirror)

--------------------------
If 'no harm, no foul' is used by the Police ...why then are they booking people for speeding... most of the time there is no foul here too.


Pedestrian crossing line marking would be defined by AS and the relevant authority RTA, VicRoads etc. There is no need to measure as the black / white sections will be 600mm each.

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