NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Scott_C
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Scott_C » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:55 am

trailgumby wrote:The local traffic sergeant says he won't be investigating this Minimum Passing Distance infringement I reported because he has no idea whether the measurements I've supplied per the photo below are right or not.

His boss the Acting Inspector thought this was a rather odd response and is getting him to call me back to explain it to me personally. I think it will be an interesting conversation.

Should I offer to buy him a tape measure?

I would ask him, in the absence of any measurements, what he thinks the distance is?

The still image clearly shows that the distance between the centreline of the bicycle and the left wheel of the car is slightly less than the width of a stripe on the crosswalk. Unless he thinks that the crosswalk stripes are more than 1.2m wide it is obvious the car has infringed the minimum 1m passing distance just based on average adult shoulder width of 430mm (395mm female, 465mm male).

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Nate
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:15 pm

trailgumby wrote:The local traffic sergeant says he won't be investigating this Minimum Passing Distance infringement I reported because he has no idea whether the measurements I've supplied per the photo below are right or not.


You are such a sook!!! I could park a truck in that gap! :P

here's a close-un...
Image

jasonc
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:55 pm

Nate wrote:
here's a close-un...
Image


but but but professional drivers and all that
Image

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trailgumby
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:51 pm

Nate wrote:
trailgumby wrote:The local traffic sergeant says he won't be investigating this Minimum Passing Distance infringement I reported because he has no idea whether the measurements I've supplied per the photo below are right or not.


You are such a sook!!! I could park a truck in that gap! :P

here's a close-un...
Image


It's more about his response to a clear infringement. We have enough trouble with getting police to pay attention to these. Even his Acting Inspector boss said I'd done all the work for them.

On the upside the ex-CEO of BNSW has offered to attend the station with me to meet the sergeant, and lend him a tape measure, and give a free lesson on how to use it.

As to yours, have you / are you going to report it? :P

You have enough reference points in that photo to prove it beyond reasonable doubt and you're missing an opportunity to redress the massive imbalance in the policing of the new rules.

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Comedian
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Comedian » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:49 am

Recent events have led to develop an understanding that Australians are essentially a lawless bunch. Perhaps it's our bushranger heritage, or whatever. Anyway, the upshot is that if a law exists, and is not enforced, or they judge their chances of being caught are low, then as far as they are concerned it's not a law or at least not one that applies to them.

So, with the 1m rule, unless the police are behind it - don't expect anything more from it than all the other laws that aren't enforced. For example, not indicating, tailgating, stopping at a stop sign. Personally I cannot remember hearing of anyone evah being booked for the first two, and I've not heard of anyone being booked for not stopping in the last 5 years.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:28 am

trailgumby wrote:As to yours, have you / are you going to report it? :P


ha! Do you forget who you're asking that to?
2017 is going to be a HUGE year ;)

The ground work is almost coming to an end... time to collate & collect it all.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:33 am

Comedian wrote:So, with the 1m rule, unless the police are behind it


Its not about being "behind" it - its whether they are enforcing all the laws in place, or whether they are actively & deliberately selecting to NOT enforce a small subset of laws pertaining to the safety of a specific subset of the community.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby high_tea » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:39 am

Trouble is, the police aren't interested in enforcing anything much apart from speeding and DUI. It's my considered opinion that it's because there are deeming provisions and so on that make these laws much much easier to enforce.

Sure, there's the odd "blitz" on this or that (like bells on bikes, a public safety issue on par with underpants on horses), but they overwhemingly stick to the soft targets: speeding and DUI.

As far as the 1m law goes, I find it shocking that various police officers have basically come out and declared their intention not to enforce that particular law, not because it's immoral or anything, but because they think (wrongly) that it's unenforceable. They don't get to decide not to enforce laws as a matter of policy; that's not their job.

To be clear, if they want to not enforce, say, ghastly anti-homosexuality laws, as a matter of conscience, then fine. Nobody has seriously suggested that the 1m law is in this category.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Comedian » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:29 pm

Nate wrote:
Comedian wrote:So, with the 1m rule, unless the police are behind it


Its not about being "behind" it - its whether they are enforcing all the laws in place, or whether they are actively & deliberately selecting to NOT enforce a small subset of laws pertaining to the safety of a specific subset of the community.

Exactly.

If your case gets a cop who is against the law up here you're wasting your time. Nothing you can say or do will make any difference. Their superiors will back them so no point escalating.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:37 pm

Comedian wrote:If your case gets a cop who is against the law up here you're wasting your time. Nothing you can say or do will make any difference. Their superiors will back them so no point escalating.


I beg to disagree... kind of :)
It'll make no difference in your CASE... however...
If it is continually raised through the chain, and there is a trail/documentation that they repeatedly did not enforce specific laws... it tends towards something much more serious than the force "not caring"... ;)

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:18 pm

Nate wrote:
trailgumby wrote:As to yours, have you / are you going to report it? :P


ha! Do you forget who you're asking that to?
2017 is going to be a HUGE year ;)

The ground work is almost coming to an end... time to collate & collect it all.

Bear in mind the Summary Offenses Act places a 6 month limit on when offenses can be prosecuted from the date of the offense. After that, they're statute barred.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby rich1642 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:23 am

A month or so ago I was travelling west along Oxford St. I did a hand signal to indicate that I was continuing along Oxford rather than turn into Moore Park Rd. Just as I was about to get into the correct lane with my arm still outstretched, I got my knuckles rapped by a passing car that was slowing for the lights.

I felt bad later that I was upset with the obviously inexperienced and embarrassed driver who ignored me and just stared ahead when I tapped on his bonnet with my undamaged hand. Road rage is so uncool, as well as being potentially dangerous.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby biker jk » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:12 am

rich1642 wrote:A month or so ago I was travelling west along Oxford St. I did a hand signal to indicate that I was continuing along Oxford rather than turn into Moore Park Rd. Just as I was about to get into the correct lane with my arm still outstretched, I got my knuckles rapped by a passing car that was slowing for the lights.

I felt bad later that I was upset with the obviously inexperienced and embarrassed driver who ignored me and just stared ahead when I tapped on his bonnet with my undamaged hand. Road rage is so uncool, as well as being potentially dangerous.


Why didn't the motorist apologise for their mistake? After all, you could have been severely injured or worse. A simple "sorry" would have indicated remorse.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:23 pm

trailgumby wrote:Bear in mind the Summary Offenses Act places a 6 month limit on when offenses can be prosecuted from the date of the offense. After that, they're statute barred.


lol of course it was reported.
The focus is on the war, not the battles ;)

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby rich1642 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:17 pm

biker jk wrote:Why didn't the motorist apologise for their mistake? After all, you could have been severely injured or worse. A simple "sorry" would have indicated remorse.


I'd say the couple in the car were Chinese tourists. The young wife looked embarrassed. I wasn't literally raging, but just annoyed and disrespectful. That would have been enough for the man to lose face. In the years I spent in Asia, I have never been subject to anger from anybody when riding my bike. Sure, they are incredibly competitive given the large populations and scant resources, but to cause anger in others is absolutely verboten ( and potentially very dangerous) I wish Australians would be more like that with confrontation- smile rather than get angry when somebody makes a mistake.

It should be considered that the really close passers (less than a 30cms) are pretty rare and it is all about the driver's own issues rather than you as a cyclist.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:27 am

Nate wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Bear in mind the Summary Offenses Act places a 6 month limit on when offenses can be prosecuted from the date of the offense. After that, they're statute barred.


lol of course it was reported.
The focus is on the war, not the battles ;)

Let me know how you're going. I have a couple you can use - the ones I got TINs issued against the drivers for.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:01 pm

Here's the money shot for successful minimum passing distance infringement #2.

This one almost slipped through to the keeper. I took some time to report it due to being busy at work and being advised by the officer investigating the first one that he would only deal with one at a time.

Then, the second investigating officer decided that because there was no contact there was no foul. It took awhile for me to find that out as I was overseas and incommunicado for awhile. Then, when I escalated to the Traffic section, they said they needed to wait until she returned from leave.

To Traffic's credit, the gave her some "specific instructions" and the Traffic Infringement Notice was issued on the day of her return, 9 days before the offense went statute-barred.

Image

Here's the vid. Disregard the timestamps, the front one is exactly a year slow, the rear cam is out a couple of hours.


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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:19 am

Well done trailgumby, that vehicle almost hit you. I shudder to think how many other cyclist's that motorist had done that to.

When I look at the various video's the appearance of distance in the video appears to be further than what the calibration photo shows. I'm wondering if this is part of the reason that the police are reluctant to issue a ticket?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:52 am

mikesbytes wrote:Well done trailgumby, that vehicle almost hit you. I shudder to think how many other cyclist's that motorist had done that to.

Yes, if I hadn't swerved left it would have been touch and go. At least one other rider claims to have been buzzed by this lunatic, according to a response on my facebook feed. It was the second time he has done it to me. I have no doubt there will be more.

Hopefully now he will pull his head in, as any of us could be running cameras and he can't tell who is and who isn't.

mikesbytes wrote:When I look at the various video's the appearance of distance in the video appears to be further than what the calibration photo shows. I'm wondering if this is part of the reason that the police are reluctant to issue a ticket?

Unfortunately calibration photos or overlays are useless. They don't pass the "beyond reasonable doubt" test.

You need to use reference points on the road surface itself. Lane lines, gutters, utilities spray painted markings, Speed zone markings, pedestrian crossings, potholes, repaired potholes, tarmac panel joins, road edges, and the like. This is so you can go back to the scene of the crime and run a tape measure over the markings. The police can then do the same and obtain objective confirmation of the evidence.

Without those, it's all too subjective and any decent defence lawyer will easily rip a prosecution to shreds. Hence a marked lack of police interest in the vanilla close pass videos posted here, except in rare circumstances (eg trucks so close they buffet the cyclist off the road like some of BianchCam's horror passes).

This is what drives the lack of police interest.

It's only when I've focussed their attention onto the road markings and what that shows about the vehicle's position in relation to mine that I've got them to bite. This is in part why I've been successful and others have not. Being cheerful, knowledgeable, understanding of their evidence requirements, and persistent is probably important too.

Getting lucky with an officer who was empathetic and motivated for my first report cannot be underestimated either, as it gave me a track record that showed subsequent police that I am someone they can work with. I think this will be a deciding factor in my third report. Ray Rice encouraging me to drop his name and remind officers that Bicycle NSW is watching has helped too.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:37 am

trailgumby wrote:It's only when I've focussed their attention onto the road markings and what that shows about the vehicle's position in relation to mine that I've got them to bite.

I appreciate your on-going work.
I know Comedian hasn't had any luck with road markings in QLD sadly. And in my close passes, most being on Mt Coot-tha, there are few/no additional road markings that the centre line. And yes, even with a calibration video...
Image

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:56 pm

jasonc wrote:
trailgumby wrote:It's only when I've focussed their attention onto the road markings and what that shows about the vehicle's position in relation to mine that I've got them to bite.

I appreciate your on-going work.
I know Comedian hasn't had any luck with road markings in QLD sadly. And in my close passes, most being on Mt Coot-tha, there are few/no additional road markings that the centre line. And yes, even with a calibration video...

One of Comedian's was of a QPOL patrol car close shaving him. Seems like QPOL has a serious ethics and accountability culture issue. :(

What's the gap between the centre line and the road edge? Can you subtract the car width from that and get a calculated gap that way? That's what worked for the offense above.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:14 pm

trailgumby wrote:
jasonc wrote:
trailgumby wrote:It's only when I've focussed their attention onto the road markings and what that shows about the vehicle's position in relation to mine that I've got them to bite.

I appreciate your on-going work.
I know Comedian hasn't had any luck with road markings in QLD sadly. And in my close passes, most being on Mt Coot-tha, there are few/no additional road markings that the centre line. And yes, even with a calibration video...

One of Comedian's was of a QPOL patrol car close shaving him. Seems like QPOL has a serious ethics and accountability culture issue. :(

What's the gap between the centre line and the road edge? Can you subtract the car width from that and get a calculated gap that way? That's what worked for the offense above.

I'll try that with the next one. And Yes, qps are doing their best to ignore us. Problem is that some of us are really stubborn
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby outnabike » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:59 pm

We don't have the one metre law in Vic, but I put many complete video submissions with measurements...the lot. I received nil consideration and in fact was told off by a goon squad fool (dressed as a policeman)on my front door.

I decided to include a superimposed pic of the cyclist next to the offending vehicle. Empty lane on the right.

I was told to talk to the hand. And this from officers that reckon they ride motorbikes.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:38 pm

jasonc wrote:Problem is that some of us are really stubborn

*Very* pleased to hear that. They need to be pulled into line.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:18 pm

outnabike wrote:We don't have the one metre law in Vic, but I put many complete video submissions with measurements...the lot. I received nil consideration and in fact was told off by a goon squad fool (dressed as a policeman)on my front door.

I decided to include a superimposed pic of the cyclist next to the offending vehicle. Empty lane on the right.

I was told to talk to the hand. And this from officers that reckon they ride motorbikes.

Image
The superimposing of the rider really shows the distance

Sounds like they police will only talk to you if your dead. Hang on, you can't talk if your dead
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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