NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Comedian » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:59 am

outnabike wrote:We don't have the one metre law in Vic, but I put many complete video submissions with measurements...the lot. I received nil consideration and in fact was told off by a goon squad fool (dressed as a policeman)on my front door.

I decided to include a superimposed pic of the cyclist next to the offending vehicle. Empty lane on the right.

I was told to talk to the hand. And this from officers that reckon they ride motorbikes.

Image


I was nearly hit by a police car in QLD up here. Think 25cm in a 70 zone instead of the mandated 1.5m. Brilliant and compelling video evidence. I was also told to talk to the hand - and we have the 1m law.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 1m laws are a total waste unless your state police are onside and are willing to enforce it.

EDIT: Actually they are worse than a waste as they are usually bundled with all sorts of other punitive bike laws which end up being the only ones enforced while the 1m laws are ignored.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby eldavo » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:29 pm

Corrupt Police in QLD? Well I never...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh_Bjelke-Petersen

Here's a road rage clip from QLD Police, operating undercover as Russians...
https://youtu.be/LQjcR2hwlp8?t=263

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:17 pm

There's been a bit of a brouhaha on the Helmet Cops Sydney FB page where a number of cyclists were fined for not using the separated cycleway on Liverpool Street this morning. The cop was reportedly quite aggressive. The problem for him is it is not offense. The separated cycleway is not signed as a Bicycle lane.

More discriminatory policing...

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:27 am

Don't s'pose you know a good lawyer Gumby?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:56 am

trailgumby wrote:There's been a bit of a brouhaha on the Helmet Cops Sydney FB page where a number of cyclists were fined for not using the separated cycleway on Liverpool Street this morning. The cop was reportedly quite aggressive. The problem for him is it is not offense. The separated cycleway is not signed as a Bicycle lane.

More discriminatory policing...


This is why we have to use the roads that do not have these cycleways on them. Don't give them any chances.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:27 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Don't s'pose you know a good lawyer Gumby?

I need a new one actually. My current lawyer has dropped a few too many balls of late.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby ADF_Sutto » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:24 pm

I had a close call with a car this morning passing me within whiskers distance, I was preparing to ditch the bike by jumping up the curb. I've got it all on my Fly6, but with all the police not wanting to know about it I doubt I'll even bother showing them.

As I say to my wife, the camera on the back of the bike is for her to give to police when I'm dead or in a come. Sadly I doubt they'll do anything until then...

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:39 pm

Post the vid, we may see something you've missed that could give you the required leverage.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:56 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Don't s'pose you know a good lawyer Gumby?

Good lawyer - init like military intelligence :wink:

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:54 pm

Nate wrote:Image


Infringement notice issued :)
Now i just need to recover damage to my bike fenders & gloves from the driver.

Officer said something about him going to claim damage from his vehicle from he... lols..

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:12 pm

@Nate Love your work :D

Edit: Update regarding the close pass in Mosman with the Chrysler 300C from before Christmas. Spoke to the traffic sergeant, who has had a change of heart and is now going to assign a constable to investigate the incident and track down the driver.

Also heard from BNSW that another guy is about to have a win on getting a close pass infringement issued, so it looks like there are signs of a slow thaw at NSW Police. 8)

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:17 pm

Had a call back from the constable assigned to my event today. Owner of the Mosman hire car has been traced and log books requested to determine who was driving on the date in question.

He's preparing a statement for me to come in and sign (basically a copy-paste of mine supplied on the DVD) ... but forgot to tell me which station in the LAC he's at :lol: - I'll follow up tomorrow.

The wheels turn slowly....

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:31 am

trailgumby wrote:Also heard from BNSW that another guy is about to have a win on getting a close pass infringement issued, so it looks like there are signs of a slow thaw at NSW Police. 8)


you're having a lot more wins down there than we are up here.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:05 am

trailgumby wrote:@Nate Love your work :D

Edit: Update regarding the close pass in Mosman with the Chrysler 300C from before Christmas. Spoke to the traffic sergeant, who has had a change of heart and is now going to assign a constable to investigate the incident and track down the driver.

Also heard from BNSW that another guy is about to have a win on getting a close pass infringement issued, so it looks like there are signs of a slow thaw at NSW Police. 8)


The more of these events that are enforced, the easier it should become to enforce them (should become a standard procedure, rather than the exception).

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:13 pm

jasonc wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Also heard from BNSW that another guy is about to have a win on getting a close pass infringement issued, so it looks like there are signs of a slow thaw at NSW Police. 8)


you're having a lot more wins down there than we are up here.

I've been brought in to "consult" on this one by my BNSW contact.

Based on my experience with the Fly12 I have no doubt the pass was extremely close, maybe 30cm after abusing the cyclist with his horn.

Unfortunately, the lack of paint or other markings on the road to provide objective reference points to go back on site and measure is going to make it very tough to get a win this time.

:(

(edited for grammar)
Last edited by trailgumby on Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:46 am

trailgumby wrote:the lack of paint or other markings on the road to use to provide objective reference points to go back on site and measure is going to make it very tough to get a win this time.


that's been the problem with pretty much all my close passes sadly.
Image

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Howzat » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:04 pm

So, question: if you had only one camera on your bike, would you orient it front facing or rear facing? Which is the most useful for the purposes of reporting close passes?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:39 pm

Howzat wrote:So, question: if you had only one camera on your bike, would you orient it front facing or rear facing? Which is the most useful for the purposes of reporting close passes?

Depends on the camera to some extent, but I would favour the front.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:15 pm

InTheWoods sent me this:
Imagephoto uploading
Image

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby bychosis » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:07 pm

At lunch today one of the blokes at work (not known as a cyclist) today said he popped into the LBS to buy a tube. The lady behind the counter told him: from today you'll need to make sure you carry photo ID. ::sigh::

I looked it up and found the news from December where it had been abandoned and let him, and others know, but there was some 'robust' discussion about whether or not it was a good idea in the first place. Makes me wonder (now) about how much they all know about 1m rule etc.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby roller » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:29 pm

bychosis wrote:At lunch today one of the blokes at work (not known as a cyclist) today said he popped into the LBS to buy a tube. The lady behind the counter told him: from today you'll need to make sure you carry photo ID. ::sigh::
.


might be worth finding out which LBS it was and letting them know too?
inflammatory statement or idea

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Xplora » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:00 pm

Random question...

Let's say the driver is taken to court based on the video evidence. What basis can the defence attack the video evidence on? You show them the tram lines, and then you show that the pass was roughly 30cm instead of 100cm. No reasonable person shown a dozen comparable videos of 1m passes is going to make the mistake of 30cm is actually 1.4 metres. So the prosecution alleges a 30cm pass based on calibration and so forth... the defence really has to take the magistrate for a fool, because the only passes that will be taken to court are very serious and clearly "beyond reasonable doubt".

We aren't talking about 30cm vs 50cm vs 1.1m - the offence is the offence. It happened or it didn't. The degree isn't relevant until sentencing. Seems pretty simple.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Warin » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:48 am

Xplora wrote:We aren't talking about 30cm vs 50cm vs 1.1m - the offence is the offence. It happened or it didn't. The degree isn't relevant until sentencing. Seems pretty simple.


Seems pretty simple?

If you exceeded the speed limit by 0.5 km/h it would be a lot harder to prove compared to if you exceeded the speed limit by 100 km/h.

The offence has to be proved in court, to the courts satisfaction. The closer that distance is to the limit the more difficulty in determining if the pass distance was less than the legally required distance. No such thing as 'roughly' in the courts view, either the offence is proved without doubt, or it is not proved. A lawyer will never want the words 'roughly', 'approximately', 'uncertain' to be used in support of their case.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Warin » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:03 am

trailgumby wrote:Unfortunately, the lack of paint or other markings on the road to provide objective reference points to go back on site and measure is going to make it very tough to get a win this time.


If there were, on the same video file, paint markings, on post or previous time, that would confirm the passing distance .. could they not be used in court?
The calibration of speed guns is not done at the time of the offence but either previously (most states) or post (WA). That is accepted in court .. I would think a good lawyer can argue that the distance can be verified using the post/prevision markings.

An argument can be made that calibration of the device can be made even on a separate video file .. provided it is the same device used under the same conditions. However it is easier with the same video file .. as that demonstrates the same device and conditions.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:01 pm

Warin wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Unfortunately, the lack of paint or other markings on the road to provide objective reference points to go back on site and measure is going to make it very tough to get a win this time.


If there were, on the same video file, paint markings, on post or previous time, that would confirm the passing distance .. could they not be used in court?
The calibration of speed guns is not done at the time of the offence but either previously (most states) or post (WA). That is accepted in court .. I would think a good lawyer can argue that the distance can be verified using the post/prevision markings.

An argument can be made that calibration of the device can be made even on a separate video file .. provided it is the same device used under the same conditions. However it is easier with the same video file .. as that demonstrates the same device and conditions.

Yes, all of that is true theoretically, but it will take a good prosecutor to argue it and and even better one to win it, and a very ordinary one to counterargue to the point of establishing reasonable doubt. Too many potential points of failure. Will be hard to interest police - seriously not worth their while for a $300-ish fine and 3 points.

An issue with using a calibration from earlier is that the camera may have moved on the seatpost, and this is impossible to argue against unless the camera captures the rear tyre in frame. Mine does not on the road bike.

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