NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:23 am

What would be in principle course of action necessary to change the law such as that:
- for a bicycle (a non-motorised vehicle) stop sign means give way.
- Cycling on a footpath is permitted with adequate speeds (I know this has to refined).
- Overtaking a bicycle on a road is permitted if the next right lane is clear to do so (this would help to police better 1m rule).

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:45 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:- Overtaking a bicycle on a road is permitted if the next right lane is clear to do so (this would help to police better 1m rule).

That is already allowed.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:03 pm

human909 wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:- Overtaking a bicycle on a road is permitted if the next right lane is clear to do so (this would help to police better 1m rule).

That is already allowed.

:D ,
sorry I meant permitted only-they have to get out of the lane, not to overtake me in the very same lane.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby DavidS » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:31 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
human909 wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:- Overtaking a bicycle on a road is permitted if the next right lane is clear to do so (this would help to police better 1m rule).

That is already allowed.

:D ,
sorry I meant permitted only-they have to get out of the lane, not to overtake me in the very same lane.


Isn't that already the case unless there is only one lane going in the direction the bicycle is traveling? I thought the rule was that you have to change lanes when overtaking another road vehicle, the exception being that you don't have to change lanes when passing a bicycle when only one lane in your direction. Of course, I see very little evidence any drivers are aware of, or observe, this law.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby diggler » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:27 pm

I have a horizontal flag which extends 50 cm beyond the end of the handlebar on my right. I had a taxi driver complain about my flag today as it makes it harder for him to pass. I pointed out to him that by law, he should be giving me a metre and so the flag won't be a problem if he follows the law. He said I should put it on the other side of the bike. Good grief! I guess if he had more brains he wouldn't be a taxi driver. (apologies for the cheap shot at taxi drivers).
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby ironhanglider » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:08 pm

diggler wrote:I have a horizontal flag which extends 50 cm beyond the end of the handlebar on my right. I had a taxi driver complain about my flag today as it makes it harder for him to pass. I pointed out to him that by law, he should be giving me a metre and so the flag won't be a problem if he follows the law. He said I should put it on the other side of the bike. Good grief! I guess if he had more brains he wouldn't be a taxi driver. (apologies for the cheap shot at taxi drivers).


I've always thought the horizontal flags were an effective idea. I've seen a few variations, the safety wing (which would be about half that length) the cat's claw, even an unadorned bit of coat hanger wire (I suspect it was designed to be difficult to see).

With the variable weather around lately it might also justify carrying an umbrella with you just in case. Naturally it would be strapped to the rack with the metal tip on the right hand side. The purpose built solutions are usually able to fold back so that they are not in the way when filtering or on congested paths.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby diggler » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:58 pm

ironhanglider wrote: The purpose built solutions are usually able to fold back so that they are not in the way when filtering or on congested paths.


Exactly. I constructed mine using a kickstand so it can retract.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cheesewheel » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:23 pm

diggler wrote:I have a horizontal flag which extends 50 cm beyond the end of the handlebar on my right. I had a taxi driver complain about my flag today as it makes it harder for him to pass. I pointed out to him that by law, he should be giving me a metre and so the flag won't be a problem if he follows the law. He said I should put it on the other side of the bike. Good grief! I guess if he had more brains he wouldn't be a taxi driver. (apologies for the cheap shot at taxi drivers).

I wonder whether that could deem the bicycle illegal. I recall some info about maximum legal width for bicycles (differs from state to state no doubt). iirc it was something around the 80cm mark, which means some mtb flatbars are over. Granted I have never heard of someone being pulled up for an overly wide bicycle frame, but given that plods are known to be just as overly enthusiastic to slap a fine on a cyclist as they are apathetic to chase up an elbow shaving MM, I wonder how such a contraption would measure up to their irrate fastidiousness.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Wed May 09, 2018 11:17 am

Apparently the "trial of the laws was a success and showed a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle crashes"

Just imagine how effective the laws would be if they were backed up with an education campaign and enforced by NSW Police

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 09, 2018 11:22 am

find_bruce wrote:Apparently the "trial of the laws was a success and showed a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle crashes"

Just imagine how effective the laws would be if they were backed up with an education campaign and enforced by NSW Police


Apparently making it impossible to report these close passing incidents is a way to doctor the figures.

I got a stupidly close pass on the weekend by a small truck towing a trailer. Didn't have a video camera with me, because I know that the video evidence is not admissable because others have been given a whole laundry list of excuses of why the camera isn't calibrated, or any of the other reasons.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 09, 2018 11:34 am

g-boaf wrote: because I know that the video evidence is not admissable because others have been given a whole laundry list of excuses of why the camera isn't calibrated, or any of the other reasons.


Of course it is admissible.

As you say, you've been told of "a whole laundry list of excuses".

To keep it polite, that in no way constitutes a considered legal opinion. If you want one of those, you need to actually talk to a lawyer.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 09, 2018 12:10 pm

Thoglette wrote:
g-boaf wrote: because I know that the video evidence is not admissable because others have been given a whole laundry list of excuses of why the camera isn't calibrated, or any of the other reasons.


Of course it is admissible.

As you say, you've been told of "a whole laundry list of excuses".

To keep it polite, that in no way constitutes a considered legal opinion. If you want one of those, you need to actually talk to a lawyer.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it's now my fault because I don't talk to a lawyer for every close pass?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby antigee » Wed May 09, 2018 12:14 pm

find_bruce wrote:Apparently the "trial of the laws was a success and showed a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle crashes"

Just imagine how effective the laws would be if they were backed up with an education campaign and enforced by NSW Police


Well that's both Queensland and NSW trials that despite no enthusiasm from Police for enforcement gave positive outcomes, a concern I'd have that is that many drivers may revert to old habits when they realise there is little to no enforcement - meanwhile in Victoria we have had a short education campaign but no other action - I found it hard to understand that parliament mandated an education campaign but didn't give a timescale for it and a timescale for reporting its effectiveness - unless I missed something and TAC is actually a public body more open than I perceive

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 09, 2018 12:26 pm

antigee wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Apparently the "trial of the laws was a success and showed a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle crashes"

Just imagine how effective the laws would be if they were backed up with an education campaign and enforced by NSW Police


Well that's both Queensland and NSW trials that despite no enthusiasm from Police for enforcement gave positive outcomes, a concern I'd have that is that many drivers may revert to old habits when they realise there is little to no enforcement - meanwhile in Victoria we have had a short education campaign but no other action - I found it hard to understand that parliament mandated an education campaign but didn't give a timescale for it and a timescale for reporting its effectiveness - unless I missed something and TAC is actually a public body more open than I perceive



You need operations like what British Police are doing, riding on the road just like normal riders and pinging drivers for doing the wrong thing. Then drivers will wonder if the next bicycle rider they see might be the Police. They'll behave themselves very quickly.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cyclophiliac » Wed May 09, 2018 12:47 pm

find_bruce wrote:Apparently the "trial of the laws was a success and showed a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle crashes"

Just imagine how effective the laws would be if they were backed up with an education campaign and enforced by NSW Police

All they need to do now is fix the motor-vehicle to bicycle crashes. :roll:
That statement was wrong on so many levels, almost as if it was designed as a subtle anti-cyclist comment, implying that (a) bicycles hit motor vehicles and (b) that bicycles aren't vehicles.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby antigee » Wed May 09, 2018 1:03 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Apparently the "trial of the laws was a success and showed a 15 per cent reduction in bicycle to vehicle crashes"

Just imagine how effective the laws would be if they were backed up with an education campaign and enforced by NSW Police

All they need to do now is fix the motor-vehicle to bicycle crashes. :roll:
That statement was wrong on so many levels, almost as if it was designed as a subtle anti-cyclist comment, implying that (a) bicycles hit motor vehicles and (b) that bicycles aren't vehicles.


I wouldn't worry about language too much... :(

Cycling Australia chief executive Steve Drake said "anything that helps keep vulnerable road users safe is a good thing and the minimum passing laws is definitely one of those".

"It isn't uncommon for riders to be clipped by side mirrors......

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 09, 2018 1:26 pm

g-boaf wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it's now my fault because I don't talk to a lawyer for every close pass?


What I'm saying that deciding not to report a close pass based on gossip (for want of a better word) is shortchanging yourself.

I'll go further and note that video footage is regularly accepted as evidence (e.g. the case leading to the current review of consent laws) in NSW. And those north of the border have had bike-camera footage used as the basis for issuing "close pass" infringement notices.

Now, they also had to deal with "busy" police officers to make this happen. I had a quick look for the thread but didn't find it, perhaps tonight.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Cyclophiliac » Wed May 09, 2018 1:52 pm

Thoglette wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it's now my fault because I don't talk to a lawyer for every close pass?


What I'm saying that deciding not to report a close pass based on gossip (for want of a better word) is shortchanging yourself.

I'll go further and note that video footage is regularly accepted as evidence (e.g. the case leading to the current review of consent laws) in NSW. And those north of the border have had bike-camera footage used as the basis for issuing "close pass" infringement notices.

Now, they also had to deal with "busy" police officers to make this happen. I had a quick look for the thread but didn't find it, perhaps tonight.

It wasn't this one, was it?
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=90030&p=1409957#p1409957

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 09, 2018 2:10 pm

Thoglette wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it's now my fault because I don't talk to a lawyer for every close pass?


What I'm saying that deciding not to report a close pass based on gossip (for want of a better word) is shortchanging yourself.


Gossip? Really...

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=97863&p=1444629#p1444629

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Wed May 09, 2018 2:57 pm

Has NSW had a 15% reduction in cycling? :roll:
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Wed May 09, 2018 2:58 pm

The answer is easy.
The police will outright lie to your face.

They will say its not admissible & nothing can be done - which is not true.

It needs to be provable beyond doubt that it was <1m, it cant "look" close. there must be road markings, or if you can fold a mirror back with an arm <1m - there's concrete proof.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Tequestra » Wed May 09, 2018 2:59 pm

diggler wrote:I have a horizontal flag which extends 50 cm beyond the end of the handlebar on my right.

That is what I have been thinking of doing. What I have planned is an old car radio antenna with one of those hi-viz, fluro' marker pens on the end, to make a 1.0m distance from my right rear-view mirror.

The maximum width of a bicycle (or trike as far as I remember what I read last year), is 750mm in Western Australia. I would think that "common-sense" would justify such a stick with an orange flag (and marker pen for evidence) which extends 1.0m from the side of the <750mm wide bike, but logic and Australian government/media are not very often part of the same thing anymore, so that is half the reason I procrastinate. It is also a good idea in the big city full of strangers with badges not to stand out in the crowd, and target oneself for trouble from malicious individuals with authority, so that is a related concern.

The other reason I would prefer not to have to fit such a flag on a stick to remind other motorists of what is common sense to most intelligent adults, is that it would upset the balance and create needless wind resistance on the RHS. It is quite a tossup between the political message and the practicality.

Another solution which I have seen around Perth is cyclists wearing hi-vis vests with 1m-> signs on the backs. Again, I procrastinate because it is in some ways a bit like painting a target on one's back for members of the Anti-Cyclist Party.

PS: Sorry I have been away for a couple of weeks lately. It is the Big Truck which has stopped me commuting by bicycle this month. I need to keep the battery charged, and now, having just put $50 worth of diesel in it, which should pay for around 500km, it is more financially viable to drive the Big Truck around when there needs some commuting, and eat one good meal per day, than to ride the bike and use all that energy and then need to pay for two meals per day. I never would have thought of this if it hadn't happened to me. Hopefully I will soon work out how long the Big Truck can hibernate in the driveway between drives without the battery going flat, and then I'll be back in the saddle, commuting for the environment.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Wed May 09, 2018 3:23 pm

An announcement from BicycleNSW

Minimum Passing Distance Made Permanent in NSW

Here are all of the key quotes and information from their press info - it righty concentrates on the missing component - enforcement.

Bicycle NSW and Minister Pavey announced today that the Minimum Passing Distance is being made permanent. From April 2016, the MPD has been in a trial phase. Since this time, Bicycle NSW has worked with the NSW Government to educate them about the importance of this law and we are thrilled that it being made permanent. Bicycle NSW has worked very hard to educate NSW politicians to ensure that this law was brought before NSW parliament following successful trials elsewhere, as advocated for by Amy Gillett Foundation. Now in May 2018, Bicycle NSW can say, together with the NSW Government, that we are making a better environment for cycling in our state.

Only 70 motorists have been charged since safe passing rules were introduced, but Bicycle NSW is called daily by at least one of our Members about a close pass. We have a full MPD guide on our website in terms of how you can take evidence to the police - you can view it here. Still, many of these are left unreported due to “lack of evidence” or the police not wanting to investigate these offences.

We are talking to the police to raise awareness about this particular law and how to actually charge and/or fine. We are sending representatives to the Highway Patrol training course in order to teach them about the Minimum Passing Distance law.

Minister Pavey and the NSW Government have done well in ensuring this law becomes permanent but legalising this is just not enough. Bicycle NSW looks forward to working with the Minister in order to increase awareness and enforcement of this law. Let’s keep our cyclists safe.


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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 09, 2018 4:21 pm

g-boaf wrote:Gossip? Really...


Yes, please re-read what I said.

Quoting someone's experience of having had a police officer lie does not address the admissibility (or otherwise) of video evidence.
Indeed, it only re-enforces the need to understand your actual legal position (which you will not get from a taxi driver, bar maid or forum member) and to have a suite of tactics to push past the (likely) initial reluctance of the first officer you talk to.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Wed May 09, 2018 6:44 pm

Permanent law may see a stepup in more serious enforcement.

Private video is always dodgy since it is quite easy to fight in court and it gets very expensive for prosecution to prove it is valid.
Though that's no excuse for police not sending a fine and then dropping it as soon as it is challenged. That at least scares people.

Real enforcement needs to be unmarked cops on bikes running a calibrated camera or more techy radar etc.

Hopefully now that trial is finished NSW will trial bikes on footpaths and crossings. I'm happy with a 10kph or so limit (with +100% measurement tolerance to account for bad/no speedo and difficulty getting a radar reading), better than current blanket ban.

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