NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

human909
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:08 am

steveagle wrote:Existing laws weren't much of a deterrent to running red lights and this is big motorist gripe so something had to be done.

Where is the evidence that this is an issue? Why does something have to be done? Where is the evidence that increasing fines will be a deterrent? (It hasn't changed a thing in Vic.)

tubby74
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby tubby74 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:14 am

yugyug wrote:BN(V)'s comments are hypocritical because they supported huge increases in their own state, and they don't support passing laws so I can see why their framed their criticism in that regard, but at least they are using the appropriate kind of language to describe the ID requirement and fine increases in general. Advocacy has a lot to do with words and presence in the media. In this case, surprisingly, BN have made a better showing than BNSW, who I would say have just rolled over.


got this response from BNSW today - does nothing to make me think they are doing enough. They also didn't respond to a query about a cycle lane not 100m from their office blocked for over a year and cyclists told to get off and walk rather than use the road.

Many thanks for your feedback. Bicycle NSW have campaigned strongly for the Minimum Passing Distance Legislation (MPDL) for some time - unlike BN(Vic) who have actively worked against it (but won't state this publicly). MPDL is a great step forward, and we are pleased to have fought for this.

During the process we both in committee and publicly voiced our concerns with the compulsory carrying of ID and automatic equivalence of fines. Again, this was unlike some other cycling groups. Unfortunately we were not successful in these areas.

We will now be working even harder to make certain the cycling infrastructure matches the needs of riders. One critical area here is traffic light sensors and phasing.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:19 am

Just discovered something. The Moron for Trucking has been taking his lessons from Berlin (although he hasn't quite mastered the verbal platitudes).

Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby TonyMax » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:30 am

AUbicycles wrote:A very interesting thought - cyclists are required to carry identification. Does this apply to minors? And does it provide the police justification to stop a cyclist to check their identification. I am sure that it doesn't (rather it should be for the event of a collision that the cyclist has ID) but there is scope to manipulate and meaning that cyclists could be targeted for spot ID checks.

Having been threatened with arrest and transport to the police station about 12 months ago due to running an orange light and not having any photo ID on me I now carry my last expired drivers licence with me in my saddle bag along with multi tool and spare tubes. I fully accept that the police officer concerned was being a complete d!ck but if it will save me from the hassle of "We have no way of verifying who you are so we will place you under arrest until we can confirm your identity" then I'm all for it.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:37 am

tubby74 wrote:(BNSW) During the process we both in committee and publicly voiced our concerns with the compulsory carrying of ID and automatic equivalence of fines. Again, this was unlike some other cycling groups. Unfortunately we were not successful in these areas.


This is important as I can't see that any of the cycling groups would have actively supported the increase in fines or ID.


With ID - if I carry a business card - is that sufficient ID? If I didn't hold a drivers license, would it need to be a medicare card? Any ideas on the requirements of what is or is not ID?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:38 am

TonyMax wrote:but if it will save me from the hassle of "We have no way of verifying who you are so we will place you under arrest until we can confirm your identity" then I'm all for it.

That our police forces consider this to be valid grounds for arrest is the core of the problem.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:45 am

TonyMax wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:A very interesting thought - cyclists are required to carry identification. Does this apply to minors? And does it provide the police justification to stop a cyclist to check their identification. I am sure that it doesn't (rather it should be for the event of a collision that the cyclist has ID) but there is scope to manipulate and meaning that cyclists could be targeted for spot ID checks.

Having been threatened with arrest and transport to the police station about 12 months ago due to running an orange light and not having any photo ID on me I now carry my last expired drivers licence with me in my saddle bag along with multi tool and spare tubes. I fully accept that the police officer concerned was being a complete d!ck but if it will save me from the hassle of "We have no way of verifying who you are so we will place you under arrest until we can confirm your identity" then I'm all for it.

I certainly hope that you launched a legal claim through solicitors. Stopping and demanding ID is a quite illegal act (at least in Victoria). Police may try it but they have no power, and with the added threat of arrest.... well, just let them try it on and you have a wrongful arrest charge straight up.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:47 am

AUbicycles wrote:With ID - if I carry a business card - is that sufficient ID? If I didn't hold a drivers license, would it need to be a medicare card? Any ideas on the requirements of what is or is not ID?


The Government info on it has stated 'photo-ID'.
Mandatory helmet law?
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby yugyug » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:10 am

il padrone wrote:Just discovered something. The Moron for Trucking has been taking his lessons from Berlin (although he hasn't quite mastered the verbal platitudes).



Thanks for posting that IP. Some good memories of my time living and riding around Berlin. As pointed out in the video, some places in Berlin, like especially Kottbusser Tor are really poorly designed for cyclists, but I think the lady would be astounded to see how much worse it is in parts of Sydney. A main difference is that while there is some distracted driving, but not nearly to the same extent, and there is less speeding, and (to my experience) no overly-entitled motorist aggro. Berliners tend to do civil responsibility very well and are also quite cool and calm people in general. For sure, there are also way more cyclists everywhere, so a lot of this would come from the the safety in numbers effect.

And that is whats so poor, dangerous and unethical about new legislation: by hardening the barrier to cycling and reducing its uptake, these laws will make the roads less safe for all of us.

But I like the video a lot. Reminded me of Casey Nestat's bike lane videos from New York. Aussie advocates should do a lot more stuff like this.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Mike Ayling » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:12 am

To all those who are NSW residents may I suggest that you direct your concerns to your local State MP.

Posting here may give you a nice warm feeling but it will not change any of the newly enacted laws.

Re MHL here is a recent post on CrazyGuy from a jurisdiction where MHL does not apply:

Good friend of mine was an EMT before becoming a cop. Anytime he'd see a motorcyclist or bicyclist not wearing a helmet, he would shout out "organ donor!" kind of like when we were kids saying "slug-a-bug!" when we'd see the occasional Volkswagon beetle. (I used to ride with an Ambo paramedic who had similar views. Mike)

Yes, I am an organ donor, but I'm not in too much of a hurry to give up anything essential just yet. So, I will wear a helmet when cycling.

And, I encourage the proper way to wear a helmet. Snug fit, buckle the chin strap. Get one that has an adjustable band, giving options to wear a stocking cap when it gets chilly. Replace the helmet every few seasons as the plastic degrades from UV exposure.

In the five decades I have now commuted by bike, I've had four times when wearing a helmet has saved my cranium from more damage than it could have received:

1977 - front wheel dropped into road drainage grate without proper bicycle protection. Sudden stop caused crown of head to slam into stem before going over handlebars. Bell helmet and Fuji Finest destroyed. Slight break of skin on top of head where stem pierced helmet, skinned knees and hands, front tooth loose for a few weeks.

1988 - going downhill, car pulls from far left lane to turn right into driveway causing T-bone situation. Left shoulder and side of head breaks passenger side window. Helmet split in two and front wheelset tacoed, no other damage on three-day-old Bianchi Axis. Contusions and bruises.

1994 - early cell phone incident where car suddenly swerves and pinches bike into curb. Able to jump curb, but lose it when tire slips into newly manicured sidewalk edging. Somehow flip over onto back, back of head bounces twice on sidewalk. Same Bianchi Axis gets bent handlebars, broken right peddle. Scraped back at spine, birdies and stars for several days.

2011 - incident in Anchorage above. 1988 Bianchi Axis still going strong sustaining no damage.



Cheers

Mike

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby bychosis » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:16 am

Howzat wrote:
bychosis wrote:I often go without ID, but haven't been stopped by the police in a very long time, and expect it will continue the same.

I think that is likely to change quickly. Riding a bike without ID will be a quick $316, so the police will stop you just to check that. They don't need to see people doing anything wrong to stop them - riding a bike will be enough.


How often do they stop you to check your drivers licence only? They've got better things to do (hopefully)

Unfortunately this and the helmet rules will be an easy target for the bogan element, fining people who can least afford it because they happen to be uneducated and not aware of the consequences. I say this because most of the lidless riders I see tend to be of that stereotype.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:18 am

Mike Ayling wrote:Re MHL here is a recent post on CrazyGuy from a jurisdiction where MHL does not apply


More emotive that have very little to do with MHLs. Have a look at The Netherlands. You have MILLIONS of cyclists riding around without helmets. They do not have an epidemic of head injuries.

Though if you ride in a manner where you regularly or even semi regularly have head impacts then CHOOSING to wear a helmet sounds like a good idea. This applies doesn't just apply to cycling, this applies to all activities.

bychosis wrote:Unfortunately this and the helmet rules will be an easy target for the bogan element, fining people who can least afford it because they happen to be uneducated and not aware of the consequences. I say this because most of the lidless riders I see tend to be of that stereotype.

Your comments speak more of your own lack of education, rather than guessing somebody's level of education based on what they where on their head. Treat yourself to a vist to the Netherlands and get an education on cycling with the wind in your hair. :mrgreen:
Last edited by human909 on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Sweeper59 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:21 am

I don't think any of the new laws are going to encourage cycling - which may have been Mr Gay's intention in the first place. Sure, the 1m rule is designed to provide some protection to cyclists, but how is it going to be enforced? Unless every rider has video evidence of dangerous driving, it is going o be difficult to gain a conviction. Up here in Port Macquarie, we have very few cycle lanes, and most decent length rides involve narrow roads with minimal shoulders. There simply isn't enough roadway to provide the required clearances.
Mr Gay's new rules are simply going to see less people riding bikes - which means more cars on our roads, and more congestion. The fool doesn't realise the advantage of encouraging cycling, reducing the number of peak hour vehicles on our roads and the general health benefits.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby celeste boy » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:25 am

Interesting that posts about these new laws have been closed and placed under 'Safety and Advocacy.' If I was looking for a comment on the new laws I wouldn't be looking under 'advocacy.'
'Safety and Advocacy' is the wrong section to talk (and rant) about these Draconian laws for cyclists.
I don't think in this case there was much advocacy on the part of riders.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby yugyug » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:30 am

AUbicycles wrote:
tubby74 wrote:(BNSW) During the process we both in committee and publicly voiced our concerns with the compulsory carrying of ID and automatic equivalence of fines. Again, this was unlike some other cycling groups. Unfortunately we were not successful in these areas.


This is important as I can't see that any of the cycling groups would have actively supported the increase in fines or ID.


Can't you? I can see a group like the Amy Gillet Foundation agreeing to anything if it got the passing laws approved - they are single-mindedly obsessed by that legislation and their public statement on these rules reflect that: no comment on the fine increases or ID rule change whatsoever:
http://www.amygillett.org.au/new-south- ... re-matters

Why should we trust a cycling advocacy group that cherry picks the topic of their public response and ignores other aspects so detrimental to cyclists?

From the SMH back in July: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-to-b ... ibwil.html
The participants at the roundtable, which had its second meeting on Monday, include the NRMA, the Motor Accident Authority, cycling groups Bicycle Network, Bicycle NSW, the Amy Gillett Foundation, Cycling NSW, and the Pedestrian Council.


As already mentioned, BN(V) supported fine increases in their own state in 2009, so their position is suspect on that particular change.

I have no idea what Cycling Australia's position on these changes are (nothing on their website yet), except to note that they are a sports body, so presumably and redundantly support a helmet law that has almost zero effect on those they represent, whom are already required to wear a helmet due to institutional policies like club and competition rules.

To be fair, and in response to your earlier comment defending BNSW, all the cycling advocates listed above need to shoulder some of the blame for these legislative changes.

But you are probably right there must be some inconsistency between what was or wasn't said at those meetings and later public statements. I think its important that minutes of these meetings be released.
Last edited by yugyug on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby rogan » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:45 am

bychosis wrote:
Howzat wrote:
bychosis wrote:I often go without ID, but haven't been stopped by the police in a very long time, and expect it will continue the same.

I think that is likely to change quickly. Riding a bike without ID will be a quick $316, so the police will stop you just to check that. They don't need to see people doing anything wrong to stop them - riding a bike will be enough.


How often do they stop you to check your drivers licence only? They've got better things to do (hopefully)

Unfortunately this and the helmet rules will be an easy target for the bogan element, fining people who can least afford it because they happen to be uneducated and not aware of the consequences. I say this because most of the lidless riders I see tend to be of that stereotype.


Yes, hold that thought. Police can't just pull anyone over without any reason or legal basis. Take motorists, for example. They see you speeding, they can pull you over. Driving like a numbat, using a phone or weaving around, yes they can pull you over. Headlight not working? Yes, they can pull you over for that. But what about RBT? They just pull everyone over, right? Yes, there's a special law for it. In NSW, Schedule 3 to the Road Transport Act. And once they lawfully stop you, yes they can ask to see your licence. But if you are just driving lawfully along in normal circumstances, they cannot just stop you just to ask for your licence.

So without some special law, they can't stop cyclists for an ID check without a reason. Whenever you are pulled over by the cops (car or bike but it's never happened to me on a bike) you should always politely ask what you are being pulled over for. That reason may be the way you ride, or some offence, minor or otherwise, they perceive you to have committed. But stopping you JUST to check you carry ID? Legally very dubious. It is possible the legislation will allow for the cops to stop cyclists just to check for ID... hopefully not.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:18 pm

rogan wrote:Yes, hold that thought. Police can't just pull anyone over without any reason or legal basis.

Are you sure? This isn't the US. In practice Australian police VERY much DO do that. I've been pulled over at least four times when I had done nothing wrong. Driving an older car through unsavory areas might have had an influence... (My driving record is almost spotless, only one blemish in many many years.)

rogan wrote:But if you are just driving lawfully along in normal circumstances, they cannot just stop you just to ask for your licence.

Yet they DO do just that. They make up a reason why they've stopped you after they find out that you aren't the one they are looking for.

EDIT:
Well since every police car can also RBT that can easily take care of that concern. But it effectively allows for stop and check of ID of all drivers. Though extending it to a search of your vehicle was a bit much in this case:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/polic ... 2oluv.html
Last edited by human909 on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:26 pm

Sweeper59 wrote:Up here in Port Macquarie, we have very few cycle lanes, and most decent length rides involve narrow roads with minimal shoulders. There simply isn't enough roadway to provide the required clearances.

Uhuh, sorry, got to call you out on that one.

Near Sorrento, Italy.
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In Siracusa, Italy
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Despite such road conditions with narrow roads lanes and a high level of congestion, drivers always managed to cope with our presence; always gave us a good metre or more of space. They either changed lanes to pass, or waited behind us until it was safe to pass with good space. Drivers in Australia simply have a huge attitude problem. The skills can be improved very easily but the shift in attitude is a big (but very crucial) step that must be made.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AlexHuggs » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:30 pm

I wrote to the WA state government in case they get any bright ideas out of this announcement. The email is in the WA forum - I'm sure a lot of people here can do better. It's really easy to contact your state MP and minister and more effective than venting on a forum. BTW, I emailed the premier and they forwarded to the Transport Minister's office.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby warthog1 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:53 pm

tubby74 wrote:
got this response from BNSW today - does nothing to make me think they are doing enough. They also didn't respond to a query about a cycle lane not 100m from their office blocked for over a year and cyclists told to get off and walk rather than use the road.

Many thanks for your feedback. Bicycle NSW have campaigned strongly for the Minimum Passing Distance Legislation (MPDL) for some time - unlike BN(Vic) who have actively worked against it (but won't state this publicly). MPDL is a great step forward, and we are pleased to have fought for this.

During the process we both in committee and publicly voiced our concerns with the compulsory carrying of ID and automatic equivalence of fines. Again, this was unlike some other cycling groups. Unfortunately we were not successful in these areas.

We will now be working even harder to make certain the cycling infrastructure matches the needs of riders. One critical area here is traffic light sensors and phasing.



Thanks for posting this. A very telling statement re the cancerous "advocacy" organisation that is BN(V). There are no rumblings of late to my knowledge in Vic, about minumum distance passing legislation.
Considering Vic was the first state with .05 legislation, mandatory seat belts, and mobile speed cameras, it seems a remarkable deviation from Victorias history as a road safety pioneer that we should be amongst the only states without this safety legislation to protect our most vulnerable road users.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby warthog1 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:12 pm

Mike Ayling wrote:To all those who are NSW residents may I suggest that you direct your concerns to your local State MP.

Posting here may give you a nice warm feeling but it will not change any of the newly enacted laws.

Re MHL here is a recent post on CrazyGuy from a jurisdiction where MHL does not apply:

Good friend of mine was an EMT before becoming a cop. Anytime he'd see a motorcyclist or bicyclist not wearing a helmet, he would shout out "organ donor!" kind of like when we were kids saying "slug-a-bug!" when we'd see the occasional Volkswagon beetle. (I used to ride with an Ambo paramedic who had similar views. Mike)

Yes, I am an organ donor, but I'm not in too much of a hurry to give up anything essential just yet. So, I will wear a helmet when cycling.

And, I encourage the proper way to wear a helmet. Snug fit, buckle the chin strap. Get one that has an adjustable band, giving options to wear a stocking cap when it gets chilly. Replace the helmet every few seasons as the plastic degrades from UV exposure.

In the five decades I have now commuted by bike, I've had four times when wearing a helmet has saved my cranium from more damage than it could have received:

1977 - front wheel dropped into road drainage grate without proper bicycle protection. Sudden stop caused crown of head to slam into stem before going over handlebars. Bell helmet and Fuji Finest destroyed. Slight break of skin on top of head where stem pierced helmet, skinned knees and hands, front tooth loose for a few weeks.

1988 - going downhill, car pulls from far left lane to turn right into driveway causing T-bone situation. Left shoulder and side of head breaks passenger side window. Helmet split in two and front wheelset tacoed, no other damage on three-day-old Bianchi Axis. Contusions and bruises.

1994 - early cell phone incident where car suddenly swerves and pinches bike into curb. Able to jump curb, but lose it when tire slips into newly manicured sidewalk edging. Somehow flip over onto back, back of head bounces twice on sidewalk. Same Bianchi Axis gets bent handlebars, broken right peddle. Scraped back at spine, birdies and stars for several days.

2011 - incident in Anchorage above. 1988 Bianchi Axis still going strong sustaining no damage.



Cheers

Mike

I have replied to this in the appropriate thread Mike (MHL)

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby grimbo » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:06 pm

From https://www.facebook.com/mikebairdMP
Cyclists must carry photo ID. (A photo of your ID on your phone is ok too.) We have rejected the idea of licenses for cyclists. But we do think it is reasonable that if police need to issue a fine, they can identify the person they are speaking with.


Wow, cyclists dodging fines by giving false id. Must be a serious issue as no other country in the world has required you to carry ID to just ride a bike. They must have lots of stats to back this up, would love to see it! But surely the same would apply to litterer's, fare evaders, jaywalkers ...
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Nate » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:10 pm

hmmm

Riding dangerously (from $71 to $425)
Not stopping at children’s/pedestrian crossing ($71 to $425).


Love the first one - so its at the discretion of who?
After being almost mowed down when being overtaken by a large ute with trailer the NSW police's response: "typically someone has to be injured before its dangerous driving"

you have to stop at a marked childs xing until ALL people have left the cross, but others?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby tubby74 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:14 pm

I've written to mike baird's office last night and had 2 follow ups from his staff. They responded to specific points so not like the usual form mail you often get from am MP's office. I think it well worth people writing in express opinions

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:15 pm

There was some criticism as to why other posts on on this topic locked?
Easy, because this was the first post and as usual on this forum, we retain the first one rather than having separate discussions - I am afraid that it boring practicality.


@Yugyug, interesting news on previous advocacy group support of fine increases in Victoria, there appears to be a big change of viewpoint based on the public communication.

On the AGF, they are not directly comparable to the other state based organisations and they purposely have set a more narrower focus to achieve their aims. Supporters of the AGF should get in contact with them.



@human909, play nice please.

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