The constant smear campaign against cycling
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Jmuzz » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:20 pm
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:17 pm
Agree, that's my point, the cyclists aren't doing anything that significantly impacts other road users but its used to devalue the status of the entire cycling community. There is no significant argument however cyclists are portrayed as being only one level above criminalsJmuzz wrote:If they think that is reasonable vs simply staying on a x2 lane traffic lane with light traffic inconvincing noone then they can't be reasoned with.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:39 pm
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby fat and old » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:15 am
It doesn't matter squat whether you like this sort of article or not. Your opinion isn't what the authors are canvassing.mikesbytes wrote:Agree, that's my point, the cyclists aren't doing anything that significantly impacts other road users but its used to devalue the status of the entire cycling community. There is no significant argument however cyclists are portrayed as being only one level above criminalsJmuzz wrote:If they think that is reasonable vs simply staying on a x2 lane traffic lane with light traffic inconvincing noone then they can't be reasoned with.
People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference. If there's enough of them, then the sort of posting/article such as that will die on the vine through lack of support
You have a group of people who are using the road for either exercise, "training", or socialising. No other group of road users do that; at least at a speed that impacts as much on everyone else.. How do you justify your presence? I know what Mike is doing, and I agree with him to a point. Surely understanding why people go ape over this is the first step to stopping or at least reducing it? Education.
Of course, I believe that violent revolution and or legal proceedings are/is the way foward...fight fire with fire.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Jmuzz » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:32 am
The problem comes from them not knowing the law.fat and old wrote: People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference.
When provided with the law it becomes "well I don't need to read the cyclist section because I'm not a stinking cyclist".
A lot of anger comes from them thinking cyclists are breaking laws when they actually aren't. This is because the typical cycle hater is usually a very ignorant person so is ignorant of the road rules.
If road rules were forced on people with a website/app theory test every few months then they would be forced to get some knowledge into their ignorant skull and stop thinking bicycles must use a shared path, the bike symbol is a "bike lane", cyclists can't ride two abreast, opening doors have right of way, cyclists must indicate left.
It would also advertise safety messages for free to a captive audience, instead of paying social media, tv/radio, newspaper and billboards a fortune for advertising time for safety messages which most tune out.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby fat and old » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:40 pm
Couldn't agree more.Jmuzz wrote:The problem comes from them not knowing the law.fat and old wrote: People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference.
When provided with the law it becomes "well I don't need to read the cyclist section because I'm not a stinking cyclist".
A lot of anger comes from them thinking cyclists are breaking laws when they actually aren't. This is because the typical cycle hater is usually a very ignorant person so is ignorant of the road rules.
If road rules were forced on people with a website/app theory test every few months then they would be forced to get some knowledge into their ignorant skull and stop thinking bicycles must use a shared path, the bike symbol is a "bike lane", cyclists can't ride two abreast, opening doors have right of way, cyclists must indicate left.
It would also advertise safety messages for free to a captive audience, instead of paying social media, tv/radio, newspaper and billboards a fortune for advertising time for safety messages which most tune out.
Maybe our advocacy groups should be forming alliances with groups who will push this notion?
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:25 pm
I agree with most of what you said, except that the typical cyclist hater in Australia is not an ignorant moron. There are, unfortunately, a lot of otherwise intelligent people in Australia who just happen to be ignorant of the road rules relating to cyclists, and they get sucked in by the provocative media articles.Jmuzz wrote:The problem comes from them not knowing the law.fat and old wrote: People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference.
When provided with the law it becomes "well I don't need to read the cyclist section because I'm not a stinking cyclist".
A lot of anger comes from them thinking cyclists are breaking laws when they actually aren't. This is because the typical cycle hater is usually a very ignorant person so is ignorant of the road rules.
If road rules were forced on people with a website/app theory test every few months then they would be forced to get some knowledge into their ignorant skull and stop thinking bicycles must use a shared path, the bike symbol is a "bike lane", cyclists can't ride two abreast, opening doors have right of way, cyclists must indicate left.
It would also advertise safety messages for free to a captive audience, instead of paying social media, tv/radio, newspaper and billboards a fortune for advertising time for safety messages which most tune out.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:00 pm
Given that being an actual "hater" of any group (v.s. soft use of "hate" around stupid behaviours) generally requires either a PTSD-worthy life event or the triumph of the reptile over the rational, then what you've described is just about a working definition of an ignorant moron.Cyclophiliac wrote:I agree with most of what you said, except that the typical cyclist hater in Australia is not an ignorant moron. There are, unfortunately, a lot of otherwise intelligent people in Australia who just happen to be ignorant of the road rules relating to cyclists, and they get sucked in by the provocative media articles.
Sematics I know, but important ones.
Likewise calling these usually willfully ignorant people morons is not going to advance the cause.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby mikesbytes » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:50 pm
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Jmuzz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:10 pm
Just a website/app multiple choice test. Can even include basic "game" interactive elements.mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps we should be required to do a written test each time we renew our license
Can be a couple of times a year, plus every time a fine is issued or cop notes the numberplates including when they see it being stupid in a dashcam video.
Testing cost is zero. Development, call it one person for 6 months. Or just go crazy and throw $1mil budget at it, chicken feed vs what they spend on advertising which nobody pays attention to.
Doesn't matter if people cheat. Open book is fine, their brain is still being subjected to learning. If they get kid to do it, yeah they learn nothing but most should eventually just start doing it properly or at least become ashamed at their lack of knowledge.
If you wanted to go a bit overboard an app test is able to threaten to do face matching with the front camera to scare people into doing it themself.
It also means everyone is forced to look at safety messages at whatever rate desired, so govt can stop paying commercial advertising rates.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby mikesbytes » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:57 pm
Not a bad idea at all. Could be used in conjunction with speed camera's where the owner of the vehicle is required to do a quick multi-choice of a few random questions when their vehicle is detected over the speed limit but within the toleranceJmuzz wrote:Just a website/app multiple choice test. Can even include basic "game" interactive elements.mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps we should be required to do a written test each time we renew our license
Can be a couple of times a year, plus every time a fine is issued or cop notes the numberplates including when they see it being stupid in a dashcam video.
Testing cost is zero. Development, call it one person for 6 months. Or just go crazy and throw $1mil budget at it, chicken feed vs what they spend on advertising which nobody pays attention to.
Doesn't matter if people cheat. Open book is fine, their brain is still being subjected to learning. If they get kid to do it, yeah they learn nothing but most should eventually just start doing it properly or at least become ashamed at their lack of knowledge.
If you wanted to go a bit overboard an app test is able to threaten to do face matching with the front camera to scare people into doing it themself.
It also means everyone is forced to look at safety messages at whatever rate desired, so govt can stop paying commercial advertising rates.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Jmuzz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:23 pm
Eg if an app does have face matching+tracking you can force people to watch 4 hours of graphic crash footage and emotional accident survivor/offender interviews as a sort of weekend home detention and education session.
Zero cost per punishment, besides offenders data costs.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby fat and old » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:30 am
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:44 pm
Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:23 pm
If you go to http://www.bicyclingaustralia.com.au/ne ... for-change instead, it includes the actual letter with links to all the supporting videos and documentation.AdelaidePeter wrote:news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.
Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby RobertL » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:44 pm
The Courier-Mail here in Qld published the letter over several pages, along with photos etc. Really good coverage.AdelaidePeter wrote:news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.
Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.
There is also a good editorial in the C-M, in which they point out that they had to turn off the comments on the original story yesterday because some of them were so "vile". And the editorial points out that those people are part of the problem and suggests that if they can't share the road they should go catch a bus or train.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:13 pm
news.com.au have put up an article about that facebook page and the moderation they had to doAdelaidePeter wrote:news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.
Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... ff47e42c52
They have also put up the full text of the open letter
https://www.news.com.au/national/queens ... b9c241080c
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby fat and old » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:19 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 50lau.html
Headline:
Bike rider yells abuse, spits at face in Warrnambool road rage attack
Halfway down the home page
https://www.theage.com.au/
Since when are M/C riders....especially ones that look like old mate I the article....."bike riders"?
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby duncanm » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:21 am
fat and old wrote:
Since when are M/C riders....especially ones that look like old mate I the article....."bike riders"?
My local plod certainly do - when I went to report an incident and said 'bike' - they thought I was a motorbike rider.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby g-boaf » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:47 am
They'd obviously prefer people were inactive and unhealthy because that does keep doctors in business.duncanm wrote:Oh so witty.
Rather than writing stupid silly season articles, I'd prefer they just listened to me when I said I don't have hayfever and am actually sick.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby uart » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:09 pm
It's interesting that they seem almost at pains to downplay any benefit to either individual health or society in general.duncanm wrote:Oh so witty.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-10/ ... o/10599548
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2018/209 ... lian-mamil
Also interesting that exactly the same type of derogatory article could have been written (and have been equally wrong) about small groups of women talking early morning walks. Now, I wonder why they wouldn't do that?
These WORMS* are doing it because of a midlife crisis - are exhibiting tribal behavior - don't reflect increased concern for physical fitness of society in general - have no social benefit because they generally aren't also walking to work.
I can't even begin to imagine health professionals writing the above crap about people taking early morning walks.
* WORMS: Walking or running morning striders . (And yes I just made that up. )
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby fat and old » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:12 pm
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby uart » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:21 pm
Yep. But do you think that it was just a coincidence that they chose MAMILs instead of WORMSs for their piss take?fat and old wrote:That mja article is a piss take, yeah?
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling
Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:53 pm
Not likely. MAMILS are stereotyped as "pale, male and stale" and are thus just about the only group one can take a free shot at.uart wrote:Yep. But do you think that it was just a coincidence that they chose MAMILs instead of WORMSs for their piss take?fat and old wrote:That mja article is a piss take, yeah?
And puff pieces are either about cuteness (puppies anyone) or "humour" (in this case) or anger
FWIW The Atlantic currently has an article by Charles Duhigg on The Real Roots of American Rage. Anyone interested in this thread should have a read. It's a long read. Lots of good stuff but I'll leave just one quote as a polemic.
Charles Duhigg wrote: The campaign worked, the social scientists believe, because instead of telling people they were wrong, the ads agreed with them—to embarrassing, offensive extremes. “No one wants to think of themselves as some angry crank,” one of the researchers, Eran Halperin, told me. “No one wants to be lumped in with extremists or the angriest fringe.” Sometimes, however, we don’t realize we’ve become extremists until someone makes it painfully obvious.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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