What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:41 pm

Heard on the radio today that the Greyhound Racing Industry is going to sue the govt for $4B. I don't think we can try any pressure along those lines
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby jules21 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:00 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Heard on the radio today that the Greyhound Racing Industry is going to sue the govt for $4B. I don't think we can try any pressure along those lines

I didn't know that was even possible

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby find_bruce » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:43 pm

Suing the government for $4B is easy, threatening to sue is even easier. Succeeding is the hard part.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby jules21 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:33 pm

a court would be reluctant to find in favour of the appellant, surely? finding against the govt in this sort of circumstance would hamper its ability to make executive decisions that are its fundamental role. the major mechanism to overturn such decisions is elections, not court action.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby silentC » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:10 pm

There are precedents. For example Metgasco won a case against NSW over the cancellation of their gas exploration license. This would have allowed them to seek compensation but they accepted a payout in the end. Governments are as susceptible to the law as any other organisation. Court action is very common, you only hear about the sensational stuff.
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby jules21 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:55 pm

Governments are definitely susceptible to their own law, and if they breach it there can be consequences. But in the case of banning greyhounds, I thought they were changing the law. I didn't think that you could normally sue the govt over a law. The courts can only use the law to make a judgment.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby silentC » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:15 pm

It hasn't been passed into law yet. I expect that one avenue will be to see if the NSW government has the power to pass it, there have been suggestions it could be unconstitutional. That's the sort of thing that can only be tested in the courts.

Metgasco took them to court over the cancellation of their license and the court determined it was illegal. So rather than go to court again over compensation, the payout was offered and accepted. A similar thing could occur. I expect that the greyhound trainers will be hoping that the threat of it might cause the govt to reconsider.

Another example was back in the 90's when the superannuation industry took the ATO to court over legislation to increase the surcharge on contributions. The ATO lost but won on appeal. They made the law retrospective to when it was first introduced (cost me quite a bit actually) (bastards).
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby BJL » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:24 pm

silentC wrote:There are precedents. For example Metgasco won a case against NSW over the cancellation of their gas exploration license. This would have allowed them to seek compensation but they accepted a payout in the end. Governments are as susceptible to the law as any other organisation. Court action is very common, you only hear about the sensational stuff.


A license implies there was a contract of sorts. I wouldn't think there is anything in our laws that says that any industry has any 'right' to exist as such. Particularly industries that are known for breaking laws.

The other thing about this thread is that greyhound industry is just that, an industry. Cyclists by themselves are not an industry of any kind. It's a form of transport, a recreational activity. One which poses very little threat to others. They might try to ban the manufacturing and sale of bicycles and bicycle accessories but as far as I'm concerned, to ban cycling as such would be a breach of our right to free movement.

To argue that cycling might get the same treatment because a few cyclists break the law is clutching at straws. Breaking the road rules isn't even close to being in the same ballpark as the atrocities that the greyhound industry is responsible for. But banning cyclists would also mean that motorists should be banned as well along with pedestrians. In fact, motorists probably should be banned given the amount of road kill I come across on my rides that motorists haven't even had the decency to stop and move from the road.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:26 pm

We are constantly outgrouped
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby TheShadow » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:56 pm

jules21 wrote:Governments are definitely susceptible to their own law, and if they breach it there can be consequences. But in the case of banning greyhounds, I thought they were changing the law. I didn't think that you could normally sue the govt over a law. The courts can only use the law to make a judgment.


Isn't that the key issue regarding our proposed Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement with 12 other countries (primarily USA)?...foreign co. can sue our govt should they decide to do "something" (like pass new legislation demanded by voters?) which inconveniences a foreign corporation. :roll: Yet, local co. will NOT be able to sue our govt, afaik. 'Course it might all boil down to how much money you have, regardless of where you're based.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby Thoglette » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:52 pm

TheShadow wrote:Isn't that the key issue regarding our proposed Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement


Yes. Treasonable behaviour by those carrying out the (secret) negotiations and by those signing off on them.
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby silentC » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:43 am

BJL wrote:A license implies there was a contract of sorts. I wouldn't think there is anything in our laws that says that any industry has any 'right' to exist as such. Particularly industries that are known for breaking laws.

Didn't want to get bogged down in specifics about that case, just offering it as an example of the government being taken to court and in this case losing and having to pay compensation. WRT to greyhound racing, they will have to introduce a bill in order to get the ban in place and affected parties are quite within their rights to challenge it in the courts if they wish. In reference to Jules' post, courts are able to determine the validity of legislation, not just enforce it. For example they could find that the NSW government does not have the power (unlikely). They can also award compensation. What they won't do is make value judgements about the merits of the industry.
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:32 pm

Should dog owners be out grouped?

If happened in NSW, should dog ownership be banned? Man punched while fighting off dog

Of course not as dog owners make up a sufficient % of voters
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:46 pm

So just like how we failed to get the upper house to repeal the bike laws in NSW, so too has the greyhound industry failed to lobby enough to prevent the ban from being passed

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-11/greyhound-racing-ban-bill-passed-by-nsw-upper-house/7718580

The article says that Labor tried to get a number of amendments thru but failed

I'm interested to know how the micro parties viewed this and how they voted. Are they simply towing the govt line on any topic outside their core interest?
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby find_bruce » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:50 pm

Current composition of the legislative council is
    20 Liberal / National Coalition
    12 Labor
    7 National Party of Australia
    5 Greens
    2 Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party
    2 Christian Democratic Party
    1 Animal Justice Party
Coalition lose 1 as President (only gets to vote in the event of a tie), majority is 21, so Coalition needs 2 votes.

There were different alliances at play.

Disallowance of cycling fines - 15 March 2016
supported by Labor, Greens, Animal Justice
Opposed by Coalition, Fred Nile, Shooters
Vote 17-22

If you recall, shortly before the vote, the government agreed to allow shooting in national parks & the shooters party which had threatened to vote against the government, changed their position.

Greyhound ban - 10 August 2016
supported by Coalition, Greens & Animal Justice
Opposed by Labor, Shooters, Fred Nile
Vote 19-12

No surprise that the Greens & Animal Justice supported banning greyhound racing - the Greens tried to ban it last year. Similarly no surprise about the position of the shooters - would probably vote in favour of live baiting given the opportunity.

To be honest the only surprising bit for me is that Labor thinks it is a vote winner.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:53 pm

Thanks Find_Bruce, that's really clear

Labour wanted some changes

Anyway back to the topic that I was thinking about minors towing the line, that breakup shows that the minors are voting as to how they feel on a topic

So the question is, how do we get the minors to support cycling?
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:21 pm

I smell a rat

In the Telegraph (so we know its true), there was an article stating $1,500 compensation per greyhound. So how to fund that? What about the sale of Wentworth park [built on public land] to the developers.

It shows my lack of confidence in the NSW government that I would think that.

Now the bullying of other minority groups that don't have real voting power may be more supple, in the case of our minority group, the objectives being has to reduce the popularity of cycling and therefor restrict or reverse the rollout of bike lanes, which take up public space used for things like parking

Oh and BTW, I've driven down College st several times this week. How much difference did it make to my journey having one more lane available - NONE
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby outnabike » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:52 am

I reckon if you are searching for analogies it would be that "Cycling might be banned as cyclists are cruel to their bikes" ..... :)

If you are searching for consequences that might affect cyclists in the same way; ( overbearing government action in NSW), you are too late.

It has already happened with the increased fines for cyclists in that state and the helmet, bell,brakes, clampdown.

If you are looking for the general public response re both situations, it will be similar. The general public just doesn't give a damn.

They will take the easiest way of thinking as water finds the easiest way of flowing. And the answer will be; how much does it really affect them.
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby silentC » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:12 am

outnabike wrote:I reckon if you are searching for analogies it would be that "Cycling might be banned as cyclists are cruel to their bikes" ..... :)

I have seen the footage and it is quite disturbing. Here is a link but a warning that this vision may upset some viewers...

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... ows-117606
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby Calvin27 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:30 am

TheShadow wrote:
jules21 wrote:Governments are definitely susceptible to their own law, and if they breach it there can be consequences. But in the case of banning greyhounds, I thought they were changing the law. I didn't think that you could normally sue the govt over a law. The courts can only use the law to make a judgment.


Isn't that the key issue regarding our proposed Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement with 12 other countries (primarily USA)?...foreign co. can sue our govt should they decide to do "something" (like pass new legislation demanded by voters?) which inconveniences a foreign corporation. :roll: Yet, local co. will NOT be able to sue our govt, afaik. 'Course it might all boil down to how much money you have, regardless of where you're based.


+1. Recall the plain packaging ban was challenged on the grounds of some obscure trade agreement.
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby eldavo » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:35 pm

Alan Jones and his talk-back radio listeners were protesting for the industry. From what I've heard about talk-back radio, "cyclists" fall below greyhound dogs on the order of humane treatment concerns.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-10/s ... ip/7918862

I like the analysis summary:
NSW political reporter Sarah Gerathy wrote:Backed in to a corner, Mr Baird decided to take the option that would best solve his short term political problem. He gave in.

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby TheShadow » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:35 pm

What's the bet the industry coughed up some money to lobbyists, lawyers and agreed to 'share' some of the proceeds with assorted power-brokers? Can we see Alan Jones financial statements since Baird first declared the ban? :wink:

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:27 pm

Never listen to Alan Jones, is my life incomplete?

I'm guessing that the back flip is to do with money

Can the cycling community learn something from this back flip and apply it to cycling?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby silentC » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:28 am

Ultimately it is money, but basically the leader of the Nationals was over a barrel and he might have made it difficult for Baird to get legislation through if he withdrew the support of his party.
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Re: What the Greyhound racing ban means for NSW cycling

Postby hunch » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:52 am

Interesting to see what transpires with the plan to put demountable classrooms on Wentworth Park...they might have to deal with Drunken's - and the coalition's bete noire, Clover Moore for the COS site now.

Tragic death of the woman killed by the bus on Cleveland St on the weekend and the kid out at Mt Druitt yesterday hasn't resulted in the ambos not being able to do their job.....or calls for ID laws for everyone yet either. Who would have thunk!

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