Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

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ValleyForge
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Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:47 pm

Is anyone else amused by the sight of novice cyclists with a giant hamper strapped to their back "salmoning" around your city? I live in the inner city and I am gob-smacked at how the food-delivery cyclists seem to have no road sense. Or path sense. Or sense.
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby brumby33 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:57 am

Majority of them are young international students or working holiday folks who are generally not cyclists as you would define them here...i've spoken to a few of them....really nice young people trying to earn a few quid but generally their English isn't that good....I asked one guy on how does he cope with that box on his back all day...his answer with a laugh "I live in this box..its my home."

You're right though, some of their road craft skills are lacking....and common sense ain't that common.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby biker jk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:53 am

Yes it's a problem in Sydney.

I've observed frequent risky riding behaviour by food delivery couriers but this is just off the scale. It appears that many of these couriers are foreigners and have no idea about riding safely in Sydney.

https://goo.gl/8zXF94

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby find_bruce » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:12 am

As a business model in Australia, they are about to face some major disruptions. First up will be the sham contracting cases. To defend the case Deliveroo & Foodora will need to get the High Court to overturn its decision in Hollis v Vabu Pty Ltd [2001] HCA 44. Possible, but unlikely.

That will be followed by claims for breaches of various employment related legislation such as Superannuation Guarantee Charge and Workers Compensation premiums. If they survive that, the next hit would be Work Health & Safety Legislation for breach of the primary duty of care, such as provision of training, instruction and supervision.

My bet is they are the next 7/11.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:39 am

ValleyForge wrote:Is anyone else amused by the sight of novice cyclists with a giant hamper strapped to their back "salmoning" around your city? I live in the inner city and I am gob-smacked at how the food-delivery cyclists seem to have no road sense. Or path sense. Or sense.


No, how dare you be amused by "ordinary cyclists" riding their bikes? ;) (I think you'll encounter that argument shortly).

Yeah, I have seen them - but at the times I ride I don't tend to see them (or many other riders for that matter).

They are riders though, so I'm going to be courteous towards them and I'll look out for them however I can.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:24 am

biker jk wrote:riding safely in Sydney.


Perhaps this is an oxymoron?
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:28 am

g-boaf wrote:They are riders though, so I'm going to be courteous towards them and I'll look out for them however I can.


I agree, and no I don't see them at 4:45am either. But they weave up streets the wrong way, ride erratically along pedestrian paths and to all the non-cyclists there, represent cyclists badly.
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby jules21 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:59 pm

find_bruce wrote:If they survive that, the next hit would be Work Health & Safety Legislation for breach of the primary duty of care, such as provision of training, instruction and supervision.

I thought that if they won the sham contracting case, they were in the box seat to fight any WHS charges

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:17 pm

ValleyForge wrote:
g-boaf wrote:They are riders though, so I'm going to be courteous towards them and I'll look out for them however I can.


I agree, and no I don't see them at 4:45am either. But they weave up streets the wrong way, ride erratically along pedestrian paths and to all the non-cyclists there, represent cyclists badly.


What's wrong with riding up Loftus Street on the footpath, riding partially across the pedestrian crossing and then stopping in front of the waiting cars, to go down Bridge Street? :o

I've seen other examples, but that was just at midday today when I went out to grab lunch.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby find_bruce » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:34 pm

jules21 wrote:I thought that if they won the sham contracting case, they were in the box seat to fight any WHS charges

If the won the sham contracting case, that would probably impact on the super guarantee, but Workers Comp will remain an issue & the specifics of WHS duties will depend on the state. The Commonwealth & NSW legislation apply to a "person conducting a business or undertaking" and the duties apply to "a worker" which includes both an employee and a contractor. While the Commonwealth Act was meant to be replicated throughout Australia, that hasn't happened & IIRC Victoria for example still distinguish between the duties that apply in relation to employees & contractors.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:23 pm

What I've observed in Sydney is them riding on busy roads when a safer alternative road is nearby. I've gathered from those observations is that they do not know the roads well enough from a cycling perspective and/or they are trying to save a minute.

I think its great from an environmental viewpoint, less motorised traffic
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby fat and old » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:23 pm

find_bruce wrote:
jules21 wrote:I thought that if they won the sham contracting case, they were in the box seat to fight any WHS charges

If the won the sham contracting case, that would probably impact on the super guarantee, but Workers Comp will remain an issue & the specifics of WHS duties will depend on the state. The Commonwealth & NSW legislation apply to a "person conducting a business or undertaking" and the duties apply to "a worker" which includes both an employee and a contractor. While the Commonwealth Act was meant to be replicated throughout Australia, that hasn't happened & IIRC Victoria for example still distinguish between the duties that apply in relation to employees & contractors.


At one stage we had a full time legit contractor working for us. Maybe 5 years all told. We were advised that workcover would be our issue if he injured himself. Had to do with the % of his year spent working for us exclusively. (Victoria)

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby trailgumby » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:45 pm

I agree with find_bruce. Those operations are going to get nailed. Not a matter of if, but when. The crazy stuff I see them pull around Kent St has shocked me several times.

And almost none of them have their helmets fitted properly. If they faceplant, their foreheads will be the first point of contact, even if the helmet stays in place on the way down - which is unlikely.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:49 pm

Ironically I saw a Deliveroo guy in a place tonight that I've never see a bike before. Heading out of Sydney CBD driving over the motorway that leads onto Anzac bridge. At the exit ramp that goes down to the fish markets he was siting there and looking at his phone. I shudder to think how he got there and I guess he was deciding which route was least likely to result in death
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby Gerry.M » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:00 am

They're no different in Melbourne - twice now I've seen (perhaps they same person?) coming through the intersection of High St and St Kilda Rd as the lights have just gone red. This means he needs to cross 8 lanes of traffic hoping the traffic will have some patience and let him through (not to mention the trams...)
First time I saw it he nearly got cleaned up by a car which was next to me at the lights, and then by me as well as I wasn't expecting someone coming from my right when the light in front was green.

Second time he seemed to make it through a little easier - maybe people are getting more used to these delivery peoples and their antics on the road and are using a bit more caution.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby fat and old » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:26 am

Gerry.M wrote: This means he needs to cross 8 lanes of traffic hoping the traffic will have some patience and let him through (not to mention the trams...)


Looking at the riders in Melbourne and where I assume they come from originally........just like home. Which is good


Second time he seemed to make it through a little easier - maybe people are getting more used to these delivery peoples and their antics on the road and are using a bit more caution.


Which is better :)

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby human909 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:16 pm

g-boaf wrote:No, how dare you be amused by "ordinary cyclists" riding their bikes? ;) (I think you'll encounter that argument shortly)

3.. 2.. 1.. How dare you.... :P

Seriously though. These are ordinary cyclists doing ordinary things. And that is why they are not entirely competent and street smart. It is a far less dangerous to those around than what you get when you have ordinary motorists doing ordinary things! Unfortunately mixing the two on Australian roads makes serious collisions a strong likelihood.

Personally I welcome it, more ordinary cyclists to make motorists more cautious and aware. I hope nobody dies or gets seriously hurt though. :|

mikesbytes wrote:What I've observed in Sydney is them riding on busy roads when a safer alternative road is nearby. I've gathered from those observations is that they do not know the roads well enough from a cycling perspective and/or they are trying to save a minute.


GPS. The same generation of young people who are working for these companies have never grown up with maps other than GoogleMaps. Google maps favours major roads. (Not that it is just younger generations. I know plenty of 'older' people who couldn't navigate their way out of a paper bag without google maps.)

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby schroeds » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:47 am

I don't agree that they are "These are ordinary cyclists doing ordinary things. "

1. They get paid - it's a job
2. many seem to have very few bike skills yet spend all day on the road so their risk profile would be much higher
3. They carry a large box on their back which would surely impede backwards glances
4. In my observation many carry no lights even when riding at night
5. For the reasons above, and since any bike rider is lumped together by the great unwashed, they contribute to our bad reputation more than other cyclists

I'm amazed their employers don't supply boxes with reflective materials, and mandate/supply lights at the very least.
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby ValleyForge » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:57 am

They are treated at present like independent contractors, so safety is the cyclist's problem. But I suspect the status won't last for ever. As employees, they would need safety inductions....
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:52 pm

Meh, they're professional road users. Just like taxi, skybus, courier van drivers...

Fred help us all...
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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby g-boaf » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:37 pm

schroeds wrote:I don't agree that they are "These are ordinary cyclists doing ordinary things. "

1. They get paid - it's a job
2. many seem to have very few bike skills yet spend all day on the road so their risk profile would be much higher
3. They carry a large box on their back which would surely impede backwards glances
4. In my observation many carry no lights even when riding at night
5. For the reasons above, and since any bike rider is lumped together by the great unwashed, they contribute to our bad reputation more than other cyclists

I'm amazed their employers don't supply boxes with reflective materials, and mandate/supply lights at the very least.


Or better still, supply a more appropriate bike instead of having the rider have some enormous box strapped to their back. That would make the organisation less profitable though... Perhaps the poor riders just ride for free until they pay back the cost of the bike... Or an off the record forcing the rider to make secret payments back to the employer... That'd be in keeping with the lofty standards of today... :(

That enormous box pretty much totally invalidates the ordinary rider argument. Ordinary riders don't ride around with this huge box.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby DavidS » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:49 pm

Supply a more appropriate bike?

I think you're assuming that the bike is supplied. They are employed as contractors (yeah right) and therefore would be supplying their own bikes I would have thought.

They should be employed and paid properly and supplied with bikes with a box on a rack on the back. This sham contracting out has to stop, just another way to pay less.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby biker jk » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:18 pm

DavidS wrote:Supply a more appropriate bike?

I think you're assuming that the bike is supplied. They are employed as contractors (yeah right) and therefore would be supplying their own bikes I would have thought.

They should be employed and paid properly and supplied with bikes with a box on a rack on the back. This sham contracting out has to stop, just another way to pay less.

DS


Perhaps they can join the Transport Workers Union? Or perhaps not?


Release date: 7/04/2014


The introduction of the one-metre cyclist rule, which starts today, is not a one-stop solution to long-term road safety, the Transport Workers’ Union says.

TWU QLD MEDIA RELEASE, 7 April 2014
TWU State Secretary Peter Biagini said more bicycle infrastructure that is better connected and improving cyclist and driver education were key to moving forward.

‘We support improved safety for cyclists, but the introduction of this one-metre rule is a reactionary approach that will expose a lot of motorists,’ Mr Biagini said.

‘As the representative of thousands of courier, heavy vehicle, waste and bus and taxi drivers, there are too many variables and unaddressed factors that will impact our workers trying to do their jobs.’

‘Our members regularly stop-start and manoeuvre in-and-around city and residential areas. This new rule will hinder their ability to do their job and subject them to increased pressures, scrutiny and fines,’ Mr Biagini said.

‘What about interstate drivers? Will the State Government roll out a national education plan to alert those who cross the border into Queensland?’

‘This rule was passed too quickly without enough education.’

‘Further, under the new rules, cyclists can now make a complaint after an event, if they can prove the infringement with a witness or camera footage.’

‘Vehicles are easily identifiable, but what about the other way round? How do motorists, fellow cyclists and pedestrians identify and report cyclists who do the wrong thing?’

‘There needs to be improvement for the safety of both cyclists and motorists, but this rules is too one-sided and is not a sole long term solution.’

‘When you have submissions from the likes of the RACQ, Queensland Health and the Brisbane City Council all in favour of improved cycling infrastructure and education, you would think common sense would prevail.’

‘Better awareness and education between cyclists and motorists, and improved infrastructure that is better connected to keep cyclists off dangerous and busy roads are more important than this one-sided blanket rule,’ Mr Biagini said.


http://www.twu.com.au/home/media/blanket-one-metre-cycling-rule-not-the-answer/

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby g-boaf » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:17 am

DavidS wrote:Supply a more appropriate bike?

I think you're assuming that the bike is supplied. They are employed as contractors (yeah right) and therefore would be supplying their own bikes I would have thought.

They should be employed and paid properly and supplied with bikes with a box on a rack on the back. This sham contracting out has to stop, just another way to pay less.

DS


I think if you read my reply carefully, you'll see that is the point I was making indeed. Especially with reference to the 7/11 pay scandal that I made.

The company pays them proper wages, then makes the rider pay a lot of that back, secretly, with the threat of no work if that doesn't happen. That's how things go in our modern society isn't it? A lot of people seem to support that approach, or at least say nothing at all against it.

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Re: Deliveroo & Foodora Crash Test Dummies

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:58 am

g-boaf wrote:That's how things go in our modern society isn't it? A lot of people seem to support that approach, or at least say nothing at all against it.


Of course. Everyone who gets a delivery supports it; same with everyone who uses a 7-11. In fact it's no different to Nike users or Gap wearers. Closer to home you can add Rapha and most "Japanese" car drivers.

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