NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

hunch
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby hunch » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:13 am

find_bruce wrote:Learned opinions come at a cost, while the deranged rants of a semi-anonymous person on te interwebs remains appropriately priced :)
A thousand internet dollars to you kind sir!
find_bruce wrote:Licencing & rego are legally easy because for the most part it would consist of a new class of licence & vehicle. There have been reports that the RMS has considered this at the request of Drunken, however the "sources" from his "roundtable" were that this would mean the revenue raised at a reasonable cost would mean the changes lose money. Despite the protestations of the "I pay rego" nutters, drivers licences & registration fees barely cover the cost of the RMS. As AUbicycles says, one of the issues arising is the hiding & suppressing of information, including the gagging anyone who participated in the "roundtable". [edit] Details of the costings are here.[/edt]
Yeah, seems only the 12 to 16s - or their parents at least - would be out of pocket (and the minority of adults without a DL). Suppose they could start charging for all class add-ons to licenses though, for a true vote winner. :roll:
find_bruce wrote:But if the Police can already do that, why is it difficult? Or more fundamentally, why was it needed ? To me the difficulty arises because Drunken wanted to limit acceptable photo ID to a (a) drivers licence or (b) photo card issued by the RMS thus implementing photo ID as a proxy for a bicycle licence.
I did wonder about Mike's iphone license idea, especially for the easy picking, helmet offences which cause millions of deaths everywhere else in the world. Would have seemed ripe for some photoshop savvy individual to make a profitable little business on the side. :lol:
find_bruce wrote:BTW if a lawyer you are paying for ever says "that's an interesting question", run away! It means the answer is uncertain & finding out is going to cost large sums.
Definitely something I'll remember to bear in mind!

human909
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:53 am

AUbicycles wrote:Yes - it is a welcome move and I agree that 'recommending ID is carried' is the right approach.
To what ends? What role does carrying an ID play? Why is it of great need for cyclists in particular? And why if it is a need, should authorities go about recommending it?

Carrying an a spare tube or some water could be a good idea too. Should the authorities go about recommending that?

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g-boaf
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:14 pm

human909 wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:Yes - it is a welcome move and I agree that 'recommending ID is carried' is the right approach.
To what ends? What role does carrying an ID play? Why is it of great need for cyclists in particular? And why if it is a need, should authorities go about recommending it?

Carrying an a spare tube or some water could be a good idea too. Should the authorities go about recommending that?
Even the ID is useless if you have a serious accident out in the middle of nowhere and nobody knows where you are. POC had a solution to it in terms of a GPS device (optional) that can go on some of their helmets. If it detects a sudden stop that would be like an accident, it will then report this and your location to whoever you've set up as the emergency contact. A lot more useful than Duncan's stupid bit of plastic which does nothing.

One of my helmets (I call it the summer helmet, because it has better ventilation) was provided with a little sticker with a QR code on it. You can set up that code to show emergency contact details to anyone who scans the QR code with their phone. This is arguably more useful than this proposed/shelved mandatory ID. It's much quicker in any emergency situation where time is critical.

That mandatory ID was never about ID in emergency situations anyway, it was only for enforcement purposes, or, rather, placating a certain portion of our community.

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:03 pm

g-boaf wrote:Even the ID is useless if you have a serious accident out in the middle of nowhere and nobody knows where you are. POC had a solution to it in terms of a GPS device (optional) that can go on some of their helmets. If it detects a sudden stop that would be like an accident, it will then report this and your location to whoever you've set up as the emergency contact.
I have an id bracelet for that. And don't most of the current generation of Garmins have incident detection?
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g-boaf
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:05 pm

RonK wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Even the ID is useless if you have a serious accident out in the middle of nowhere and nobody knows where you are. POC had a solution to it in terms of a GPS device (optional) that can go on some of their helmets. If it detects a sudden stop that would be like an accident, it will then report this and your location to whoever you've set up as the emergency contact.
I have an id bracelet for that. And don't most of the current generation of Garmins have incident detection?
I couldn't tell you - my Garmin is jurassic age... (Edge 800). :oops:

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:05 pm

Plenty of cyclists don't have a garmin or similar. In fact I would expect that the majority of commuters don't.

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:35 pm

human909 wrote:What role does carrying an ID play? Why is it of great need for cyclists in particular?
If the NSW government recommend / encourage ID but don't legislate - then I am happy with this result as it leaves cyclists the option and opportunity to decide for themself.

We have covered the reasons why ID can be useful and this is underscored with products such as wristband IDs, but in the forum we have also uncovered some of the flaws / problems of ID. On a whole - it is a fair end-result.

Of course I am disappointed that the department led by Duncan Gay started their 'anti-cyclist' agenda and have wasted so much money and time in contradiction to their very own investigations which concluded that licensing, registration and similar was unworkable.
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:47 pm

g-boaf wrote:POC had a solution to it in terms of a GPS device (optional) that can go on some of their helmets. If it detects a sudden stop that would be like an accident, it will then report this and your location to whoever you've set up as the emergency contact. A lot more useful than Duncan's stupid bit of plastic which does nothing.
I reviewed a similar product called the ICE dot and you need to be in an area with mobile coverage.

In one letter to the minister and department, they specifically said the law will improve cyclists safety and I questioned it as a smart phone photo of the ID would be allowed - but this wouldn't provide authorities with the ability to access in a 'worst case scenario' so the concept was always inherently flawed.

The department and ministers response (which were difficult to elicit) essentially confirmed that the mandatory ID requirement was flawed and the primary value was law enforcement and not the safety of cyclists as the politicians (Gay and Baird) announced.
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:00 pm

AUbicycles wrote:We have covered the reasons why ID can be useful and this is underscored with products such as wristband IDs, but in the forum we have also uncovered some of the flaws / problems of ID.
None of that explains why authorities should be recommending this to cyclists as opposed to almost any other group you could pick.
AUbicycles wrote:On a whole - it is a fair end-result.
:?: Fair to whom? Duncan's ego? Because that is about the only role I see for this. Or should other states be moving to recommend IDs too?

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby find_bruce » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:58 pm

human909 wrote: :?: Fair to whom? Duncan's ego? Because that is about the only role I see for this. Or should other states be moving to recommend IDs too?
You are right. What Drunken should have done is admit that he has been on an anti-cycling agenda, that he has been rolled by his colleagues, he is dreadfully sorry & promises not to do it again. In recompense he is going to reinstate the college St cycleway, finish King St & Castlereagh St cycleways, fix the lights on Kent St & hand out flowers on Pyrmont bridge.

Back in the real world, dropping a stupid requirement & making it a "recommendation" is about as complete a capitulation as you can expect. So yes I think it is a fair-end result

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:11 pm

find_bruce wrote:Back in the real world, dropping a stupid requirement & making it a "recommendation" is about as complete a capitulation as you can expect. So yes I think it is a fair-end result
Yep. The only thing more humiliating than backing down is admitting to backing down. Now to hope the whole thing just dries up and blows away...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:16 am

human909 wrote: :?: Fair to whom? Duncan's ego?
I reckon we could debate the nuances of language and meaning for centuries however I am prioritising my time so will pass for now.


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g-boaf
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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby g-boaf » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:53 am

find_bruce wrote:
human909 wrote: :?: Fair to whom? Duncan's ego? Because that is about the only role I see for this. Or should other states be moving to recommend IDs too?
You are right. What Drunken should have done is admit that he has been on an anti-cycling agenda, that he has been rolled by his colleagues, he is dreadfully sorry & promises not to do it again. In recompense he is going to reinstate the college St cycleway, finish King St & Castlereagh St cycleways, fix the lights on Kent St & hand out flowers on Pyrmont bridge.

Back in the real world, dropping a stupid requirement & making it a "recommendation" is about as complete a capitulation as you can expect. So yes I think it is a fair-end result
I have to agree with both of you. And the accident the other day involving the riders and the DHL truck just proves that the laws as he introduced them did nothing to improve the safety of the riders.

Of course the Minister can say that it didn't happen before the capitulation, only after, so the capitulation makes riders less safe, but that would be duplicitous.

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby SheikYerbouti » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:00 pm

g-boaf wrote:POC had a solution to it in terms of a GPS device (optional) that can go on some of their helmets. If it detects a sudden stop that would be like an accident, it will then report this and your location to whoever you've set up as the emergency contact. A lot more useful than Duncan's stupid bit of plastic which does nothing.
The free RoadID app for your phone does this. It's VERY worthwhile when riding solo.

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Re: NSW drops plan for compulsory cyclist ID

Postby RonK » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:58 am

RonK wrote:No doubt after the greyhound banning debacle and consequently the humbling loss of their safest seat in the recent by-election, the humiliating near defeat of the first-term LNP Federal government and the even more humiliating defeat of the first-term LNP Queensland government, the LNP in New South Wales have finally twigged (possibly far too late) to the political risk of such making such oppressive and unpopular decisions.

The reality is they will need every vote they can muster to hang on to government at the next election, so offending any segment of society could have disastrous consequences for their re-election prospects.
More back-pedalling by the LNP in NSW will now relax the contentious lockout laws. The party polling must be showing them the inevitability of defeat.
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